ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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themuzicman

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I suppose you do not see any Godly commands being issued, either.

On the contrary. They were told what to do.

Obedience to God's commands is an expected work.

This arises, of course, out of your messed up view of "works." Adam and Eve had nothing to earn. They already had eternal life with God and everything they needed. There was nothing they needed to earn from Him, thus, even if there was a covenant (which there was not), it wouldn't be on that required them to "earn" anything.

The establishment of law and works came as a covenant: God told Adam obedience and partaking of Godly blessings alone would produce life; disobedience and partaking of what is forbidden and evil would produce death. (Genesis 2:16&17)
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That's not all that is required of a covenant.

This is the covenant that Adam (representing all mankind as their federal head) broke:

"But they like men (i.e. "Adam") have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me." Hosea 6:7


(And check the Hebrew word used for "men" in this verse, before you argue. It is the same word used in Genesis speaking of the creation and naming of "Adam.")

LOL.. The word "Adam" means "man". That doesn't give you the freedom to substitute "Adam" anywhere that "man" appears. (Yes, master's level study in Hebrew.)

Because the first Adam transgressed this covenant, the last Adam came into the world to fulfill this covenant on behalf of his people, who are the natural descendents of the "covenant-transgressor."

Again, no covenant established before the fall. You're imposing on the text, here.

It was necessary the first ("old") covenant be fulfilled so that "new" covenant grace and reconciliation be accomplished between God and men. Both covenants performed by the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

Umm... You're equivocating on "performed." IF we grant for a moment that the Mosaic Covenant was made with Israel by God the Son (which you have not done), then He had a different role in the New Covenant than the Old.

All later covenants are the product of the covenant of works being transgressed. It is unorthodox Christian teaching to deny the covenant of works, for thereby, the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ unto death has no purpose or meaning.

The "Covenant of Works" was the Mosaic covenant.

No, my exegesis is correct. God saves individuals (in this context, Greeks as well as the Jews in the audience), by the teaching of the word of God that is understood through the Holy Spirit of God. All the elect are "taught of God," by God's Spirit, Himself.

Um... 1) There are only Jews in this audience. The context is very Jewish, both in word (calling forth Moses as the standard ~v30-33) and deed (grumbling against Jesus v43.)

2) It doesn't say that all the elect. It says "They will all be taught of God." You're inserting "elect" there. Furthermore, the context of the remainder of the verse indicates that only some subset of "all", namely those who hear and learn, will come.

So, once again, you miss the mark badly.

Not so. You are nit-picking in order to avoid the big picture of the entire tabernacle and temple worship system, established by God, to typify and example His promises of the Messiah.

LOL.. Yes, showing the context of the scripture you used is nit-picking. Noticing that you skip a chapter and a half, and a complete context change, is nit-picking.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

If you do not see and learn of Jesus Christ by reading the O.T. details regarding blood atonement, priesthoods, and worship ordinances, you are missing many spiritual blessings and are very vulnerable to misunderstanding the accomplishment of the Son of God who came as Prophet, Priest, and King.

Jesus isn't found in the Levitical ritual practices. The author of Hebrews does make some parallels to make his point, but he doesn't come out, as you claim, and say that every element of the Levitical law is a type of Christ. And, in fact, it is not.

For regenerated saints, yes, sanctification cleanses the heart, mind, and will of Christians. That is the particular working of sanctification through the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit in believers.

Thus, it's not salvific, but a post-salvational element.

But the general definition of sanctification, is being "set apart for God." And Scriptural history reveals God often sanctified persons for His purposes, without regenerating them unto salvation or cleansing them from their sins at all.

You mean like being elect but not elected to salvation?

For example, the entire nation of Israel was "sanctified" unto God as a peculiar people to bear His ordinances and witness as being the One True God. But only a very small remnant of persons were forgiven their sins and gifted with faith to believe in the promises of God. Only these were sanctified by the indwelling presence of God's Spirit, and walked in actual holiness and righteousness.

Bzzzzzt. Only those who believed were saved. Has nothing to do with sanctification.

You stated before that only those who believe were saved, even in Israel's day, and now you're abandoning that. You're being inconsistent.

Sanctification does not always justify. Sanctification does not guarantee justification. Justification always guarantees and produces sanctification, however.

Sanctification never justifies. Never.

Muz
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The Calvinist is saying that and a lot more. Calvinism (and all other Augustinian theologies) teach that God predestined every event in the history of history. They believe and teach that every single event that happens, every orbit of every electron, the precise position and condition of every speck of dirt, every murder, every rape and every act of loving kindness and all the other events that have happened or will ever happen were all arbitrarily and absolutely determined by God before time began.
Hi Clete,

That is a good summation of the settled view. If the settled view is correct then everything that happens is predestinated to happen. But did the Lord Jesus share the settled view?

Of course not. Even though His death was prophesised He found nothing, neither in the prohecies nor in the divine purpose of the Cross, to hinder His prayer at Gethsemane:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

The Lord Jesus' necessity to drink of the cup arose not from some irrevocable edict of the past but instead from the sovereign will of a present living God.

In His grace,
Jerry
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Hi Clete,

That is a good summation of the settled view. If the settled view is correct then everything that happens is predestinated to happen. But did the Lord Jesus share the settled view?

Of course not. Even though His death was prophesised He found nothing, neither in the prohecies nor in the divine purpose of the Cross, to hinder His prayer at Gethsemane:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).

The Lord Jesus' necessity to drink of the cup arose not from some irrevocable edict of the past but instead from the sovereign will of a present living God.

In His grace,
Jerry
Amen!

Great point Jerry!

I love the arguments for the Open View that showcase relationships in action. The very concept of relationship blows Calvinism to smithereens.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Amen!

Great point Jerry!

I love the arguments for the Open View that showcase relationships in action. The very concept of relationship blows Calvinism to smithereens.
Clete,

You are exactly right about "relationships" between God and man in action. The Calvinist's doctrine on election places a limitation of the Lord's power to bless and save in the living present, and therefore denies the sovereignty of God--the very doctrine which they claim to champion!

In His grace,
Jerry
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
If this is the case (hypotetically saying) this would mean that God created free will to be evil, and the first case of free will shown in the Bible, is where the serpent deceives God, and then deceives (tempts) Eve in the Garden.

Did God predestined free will to be evil?
If God has sovereignly predestinated the fate of all humankind, why would he give us free will?
The Calvinist categorically denies the existence of free will, or at least some of them do. Others, like Hilston, believe in something called compatiblism where predestination and free will somehow coexist in some manner that cannot be explained rationally. "Antinomy" is the theological term for it. Irrational nonsense is the layman's term for it though.

So to answer your question directly, some Calvinist would deny the premise of the question and reject the existence of free will all together, while others would ignore the implied contradiction and agree that God did indeed predestine free will to be evil.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
If this is the case (hypotetically saying) this would mean that God created free will to be evil, and the first case of free will shown in the Bible, is where the serpent deceives God, and then deceives (tempts) Eve in the Garden.

Did God predestined free will to be evil?
If God has sovereignly predestinated the fate of all humankind, why would he give us free will?

Sharri,

If you are truly interested in what historical Calvinism teaches, I suggest you read John Calvin's Institutes, and study the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Compare just these two examples of great minds against Clete's simplicity and the Open Theism theological emptiness, and determine for yourself what is biblical or not.

If you cannot be bothered by doing so, it would be wise, if not just polite, if you did not tag along with others who ignorantly criticize respected and faithful Christian scholars, and encourage you to blindly follow suit.

Nang
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Sharri,

If you are truly interested in what historical Calvinism teaches, I suggest you read John Calvin's Institutes, and study the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Compare just these two examples of great minds against Clete's simplicity and the Open Theism theological emptiness, and determine for yourself what is biblical or not.

If you cannot be bothered by doing so, it would be wise, if not just polite, if you did not tag along with others who ignorantly criticize respected and faithful Christian scholars, and encourage you to blindly follow suit.

Nang

Of course, if you want to know what the bible says, I suggest reading the bible in context, and you'll find yourself moving away from Calvinism, especially Nang's brand of it.

Muz
 

Sharri

New member
Sharri,

If you are truly interested in what historical Calvinism teaches, I suggest you read John Calvin's Institutes, and study the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Compare just these two examples of great minds against Clete's simplicity and the Open Theism theological emptiness, and determine for yourself what is biblical or not.

If you cannot be bothered by doing so, it would be wise, if not just polite, if you did not tag along with others who ignorantly criticize respected and faithful Christian scholars, and encourage you to blindly follow suit.

Nang


I believe what the Bible teaches, and Clete has done that.

I revised this, guess I should've read it before posting
 
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themuzicman

Well-known member
OVT has placed more emphasis on reading the text of Scripture for what it wants to tell us than Calvinism ever has. Any serious exposition of what Nang says about Scripture will show that. One only need look at here exegetical errors in the last two days to see it.

Muz
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
OVT has placed more emphasis on reading the text of Scripture for what it wants to tell us than Calvinism ever has. Any serious exposition of what Nang says about Scripture will show that. One only need look at here exegetical errors in the last two days to see it.

Muz

Your saying my comprehension of Scripture is erroneous, does not make it so.

Your usage of Scripture, twisting it to mean what you want it to mean, does not make it so. Any heretic can use the Bible to teach wrongly, and they do. The Mormons and JW's being masters at abusing Holy Scriptures to teach their lies.

Open Theists are no better, for you deny the orthodox, historical, and creedal teachings of the Christian church. You avoid systematic theology that has been worked out by great intellects and faithful men down through time. You think you know better, but you know nothing substantial or worthwhile.

Instead, you begin with the premise that God knows maybe a little bit more than yourselves, and struggle along from there, abusing the word of God to fit your schemes, and dragging people who refuse to study properly along with you.

I know you are unteachable, Michael, and I am not in position to teach you, and I do not ask anyone to take my word for anything, but I make these suggestions and encourage study for persons out there reading who truly want to know the truths of God.

Yes, read the Holy Scriptures first and foremost, but also study the church fathers and their dogmatic contributions, in order to not fall into heresy and error.

The creeds were all written to protect the church of Christ from liars and false teachers. Here is a good source to read them all:

http://www.carm.org/creeds.htm

Nang
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
OVT has placed more emphasis on reading the text of Scripture for what it wants to tell us than Calvinism ever has. Any serious exposition of what Nang says about Scripture will show that. One only need look at here exegetical errors in the last two days to see it.

Muz

Not to mention Calvin's rookie mistake of thinking God's will is monothetic and sovereignty is meticulous vs providential control. Calvin was also inconsistent in his writings over the years. This is why one should not be unduly influenced by any one man.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Your saying my comprehension of Scripture is erroneous, does not make it so.

Howevr, you are the one who skipped a chapter and a half to try to twist scripture to make your point, and I was the one who pointed that out.

Your usage of Scripture, twisting it to mean what you want it to mean, does not make it so. Any heretic can use the Bible to teach wrongly, and they do. The Mormons and JW's being masters at abusing Holy Scriptures to teach their lies.

Why do you stand with them, then?

Open Theists are no better, for you deny the orthodox, historical, and creedal teachings of the Christian church. You avoid systematic theology that has been worked out by great intellects and faithful men down through time. You think you know better, but you know nothing substantial or worthwhile.

Ah, so are you Eastern Orthodox, or Catholic?

Instead, you begin with the premise that God knows maybe a little bit more than yourselves, and struggle along from there, abusing the word of God to fit your schemes, and dragging people who refuse to study properly along with you.

Actually, we begin with Scripture and with what God says about Himself. One thing I find consistent among you Calvinists is that anytime God says something about Himself that is inconsistent with what you want to believe, you go through great lengths to explain it away. See Exodus 32.

I know you are unteachable, Michael, and I am not in position to teach you, and I do not ask anyone to take my word for anything, but I make these suggestions and encourage study for persons out there reading who truly want to know the truths of God.

I would encourage people to study the bible. You do not.

Yes, read the Holy Scriptures first and foremost, but also study the church fathers and their dogmatic contributions, in order to not fall into heresy and error.

And so we must read Scripture as you do, making you inerrant rather than Scriptures.

The creeds were all written to protect the church of Christ from liars and false teachers. Here is a good source to read them all:

http://www.carm.org/creeds.htm

Nang

Are all the creeds inerrant and inspired?

Muz
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Howevr, you are the one who skipped a chapter and a half to try to twist scripture to make your point, and I was the one who pointed that out.

Oh get off it, Muz. I used two verses from Hebrews to emphasize one point. Nothing wrong with that. You simply want to avoid the point I made (that heavenly things were exemplified through copies in the tabernacle and temple ordinances, rites, priesthood, etc.)




Actually, we begin with Scripture and with what God says about Himself.

Actually, you begin with presuppostion about what God is like and then go to Scripture to find passages (and narrative!) that supports your presuppositions.

One thing I find consistent among you Calvinists is that anytime God says something about Himself that is inconsistent with what you want to believe, you go through great lengths to explain it away. See Exodus 32.

Calvinists believe Scripture interprets Scripture. That takes systematic study and dogmatic research, which you hate.



I would encourage people to study the bible. You do not.

This is a flat-out lie against my person and my posting reputation can prove you to be a liar. Anyone who must resort to lies to continue a discussion, is a loser.


Are all the creeds inerrant and inspired?

The Reformed creeds are the work product of men, but they are based upon the inerrant and inspired Words of God. The creeds have withstood the scrutiny of Bible study over the centuries. They were not written to replace Scripture, but to properly present sound doctrine from the Scriptures, to battle and avoid errors and false teaching.

Such as the Athanasian Creed was written to correctly and Scripturally establish the dogma of Trinity within the Godhead and the Chalcedonian Creed was written to correctly and Scripturally establish the two natures of the Person of Christ.

Are you going to deny holding to these two creeds?

Are you willing to elevate your meager person to criticize these two creeds in any fashion?

Who do you think you are, if you answer "yes" to either of the above?

Nang
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Oh get off it, Muz. I used two verses from Hebrews to emphasize one point. Nothing wrong with that. You simply want to avoid the point I made (that heavenly things were exemplified through copies in the tabernacle and temple ordinances, rites, priesthood, etc.)

LOL... Why not look up Matt 27:5, and then Luke 3:11, and tell us if we can just slap two verses that aren't next to each other together and make theology.

That's what you've done. And, in my next post, I exposed your severe exegetical error, to which you appealed to your systematic theology. That puts your theology in opposition to the text of Scripture.

Actually, you begin with presuppostion about what God is like and then go to Scripture to find passages (and narrative!) that supports your presuppositions.

Umm.. Everyone does this, including you. The difference is that my exegesis can stand up to scrutiny. Yours fails frequently, as i've demonstrated many times in this thread.

Calvinists believe Scripture interprets Scripture. That takes systematic study and dogmatic research, which you hate.

The problem is that you begin with systematic theology and then force exegesis to make your theology work.

I prefer to put my work into solid exegesis and let Scripture tell me what IT has to say, rather than trying to get it to say what my theology says.

I have a distaste for your systematic theology because it fails in doing exegesis and biblical theology, which are normally prerequisites to doing systematic theology. Again, your failures in exegesis and bibilcal theology are well documented.

This is a flat-out lie against my person and my posting reputation can prove you to be a liar. Anyone who must resort to lies to continue a discussion, is a loser.

Look at your recommendataion to Sharri about what to read in order to understand Calvinism. It didn't include the bible. Why? Because you can't understand Calvinism by reading the bible. You need the Calvinist guide to the bible in order to maneuver around the various problems Calvinism has.

The Reformed creeds are the work product of men, but they are based upon the inerrant and inspired Words of God. The creeds have withstood the scrutiny of Bible study over the centuries. They were not written to replace Scripture, but to properly present sound doctrine from the Scriptures, to battle and avoid errors and false teaching.

Then why do the reformed creeds fail the test of Scripture so frequently?

Such as the Athanasian Creed was written to correctly and Scripturally establish the dogma of Trinity within the Godhead and the Chalcedonian Creed was written to correctly and Scripturally establish the two natures of the Person of Christ.

And those pass the Scriptural test.

Are you going to deny holding to these two creeds?

Not at all. But I hold them because they are consistent with Scripture, and not because someone told me that they were inerrant.

Are you willing to elevate your meager person to criticize these two creeds in any fashion?

I have no disagreement with them.

Who do you think you are, if you answer "yes" to either of the above?

I am a Christian led by the Holy Spirit just as any other Christian is. The men who wrote these things may be learned and scholarly people. But so are many of those who have been rejected as heretics. Neither is above or below me.

Again, the test of any creed is whether it can stand Scriptural scrutiny, and any individual positing any doctrine ought to be able to back that up with solid exegesis and biblical theology, something you fail on a regular basis.

Muz
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Again, the test of any creed is whether it can stand Scriptural scrutiny, and any individual positing any doctrine ought to be able to back that up with solid exegesis and biblical theology, something you fail on a regular basis.

Muz

I do not fail on these points, except according to your personal opinion and warped view of Godly truths. I refuse to accept your critique of my witness to the Reformed faith, for your denouncements are based upon a self-centered pride in your private interpretations of Scripture, alone.

Nang
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I believe what the Bible teaches, and Clete's simplicity and the Open Theism theological emptiness has shown that.

Excuse me?

If I'm so simple then refute my arguments.

If Open Theism is theologically empty then demonstrate it.

Don't be a typical Calvinist, make the argument!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Sharri

New member
Excuse me?

If I'm so simple then refute my arguments.

If Open Theism is theologically empty then demonstrate it.

Don't be a typical Calvinist, make the argument!

Resting in Him,
Clete


ohh, my bad, I didn't say that right. Sorry Clete, I revised my orig post.

I was telling Nang that you have shown what the Bible means, not the other way around.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Excuse me?

If I'm so simple then refute my arguments.

If Open Theism is theologically empty then demonstrate it.

Don't be a typical Calvinist, make the argument!

Resting in Him,
Clete


I suppose this is directed to me, not Sharri . . .

Open Theism is empty and unestablished. There are no set dogmatics agreed upon by it adherents. It is a random system that simply uses the Scriptures to offer a humanized, post-modern god/concept rather than a thought-out belief system.

In order to do so, biblical terminology has been redefined if not outrightly abused. (For example, "Sovereign God" no longer defines an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, ruling Creator, Lord, and King, but a limited being who makes up His mind as He goes.)

Your arguments are based on erroneous premises, but rather than calmly talking through them and presenting an intelligent case, you seek a fight and call your theological opponents "idiots" while expressing unusual anger and raw hatefulness.

But if you want to throw a few arguments out there, and let me confront them, without exhibiting knee-jerk reactions to my person and my faith, then go for it.

Prove to us the spiritual depths and complexities of OVT!

:D



Nang
 

LightSon

New member
Ho hum. The age-old debates continue as always. Can cavinists and OTers agree that there are spirit-led folk on the other side? Can you agree that they are doing the best they can with what they've been given, and that they are not lying and perhaps only deceived?

I'm closer to calvinism, but have problems with it as well to the extent that I'm not ready to close the argument. What is more disturbing to me is that Christians seem to enjoy their infighting. We have one scripture; one Lord; one faith; one baptism and denominations and divergent dogmatic positions beyond measure. One would have thought that one truth, one spirit and one scripture would lead to less division. :(

One question for calvinists: why would God ordain that there be Open Theists? What was His goal?
 
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