ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[patman]

Patman, I am beginning to see a theme with you. No matter what explanation you get, it will never meet you expectations. And nothing ever seems to make sense either. It doesn't matter what you think, if it is the truth. We have done a lot of me explaining my position, even had to provide a scriptural basis. Your turn. Your explanation for why God hated Esau was clearly not scriptural and I disagree with it.



To be set aside is consecrated, not holy. And who said anything about Israel being pure. By God's law we are all guilty. And that is not the only reason they were wicked. They were wicked because of the condition of their heart. Just like you, me and everyone else before being born again. And again I disagree with you on there being no Israel. God deals with us in two ways. As individuals, and as nations. And scripture is replete with both. In your many years of study, you surely know this. You are right in saying that are all under grace. But God still has a special place for the Nation of Israel, and it will unfold in the process of time. I can see there is a large departure in how and what we believe, especially since you've told me you are an Open Theist. I don't know the prevailing tenets of Open Theism, but they are largely different from what i will call biblical theology.



No, just don't agree. And you don't have to.

This is off topic, just curious: What type of church do you attend?



Jacob is Israel, literally. Never said Esau was the Gentiles. And if it weren't for God's grace, no of us would have been saved?

Please explain to my why the passages I provided were not sufficient to show Gods attributes.

Why God isn't Omnipresent?

Why God isn't Omnipotent?

Why God isn't Omniscient?

Why God isn't Immutable?

Book, chapter or verse is sufficient?

scparmy,

You are going to have to learn how to properly format your replies. It is difficult to see your replies right away.

Why would I purposely disregard your replies? I actually do want to help you understand open theism, and ignoring you gets you no where. But your posts are very confusing and tend to be self contradicting throughout. I realize you may not intend to be, so please proofread before you post... do something to make your posts easier to understand and less confusing.

You shouldn't ask yourself how you are being confusing, I already showed you an example... you seemed to understand that you may have failed to be clear. But you still have the problem.

Which is fine... except you are starting to blame me for your bad writing. I have no use to ignore your points.

There is no theme here. No one has ever said that about me before... you are the new factor. However, I do have high standards for accepting a theology these days. I don't just jump on board because some guy on a forum said "you are blaspheming," It is going to take solid proof from scripture. If this is a theme with me, than I think I'll thank you for noticing.

I hate to point this out to you, but you have a poor understanding of christian terminology and your scriptural references is sparse. You routinely misquote scripture and assert things are in it that aren't. I am by no means the smartest christian ever, but what I do not know I keep my mouth shut about it until I study it a little.

You claimed that God knows the beginning from the end. That is no where in scripture. You claimed God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Immutable. But the bible doesn't say these things either. You then took poor examples from scripture that you hardly understand (like the 400 year thing - you had no idea Israel didn't serve Egypt for that long at all). You said God hated Esau because his children would be an evil nation... where is that coming from? Scripture? Yet even Jacob's children were an evil nation. You answer doesn't pass, it isn't from scripture it is from your head.

Please forgive me for continuing to point these faults out. But you seem to think you already know the answer when you actually don't. Then you accuse me of misrepresenting scripture? You are going to have to remove the plank in your own eye before poking mine out getting the specks.

I say these things, hoping you will be humble and admit to yourself at least that you don't truly know all the answers, not even when it comes to God's future knowledge. I also hope you see that I have plenty of reasons to distrust your answers. It isn't that I will never change.. it is more like your answers don't hold up.. at least the ones I can comprehend.

You claimed Holy and concentrated are different... Please note the definition of holy:

holy |ˈhōlē|
adjective ( holier , holiest )
1 dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred : the Holy Bible | the holy month of Ramadan. See note at divine .
• (of a person) devoted to the service of God : saints and holy men.
• morally and spiritually excellent : I do not lead a holy life.
2 informal used as an intensifier : having a holy good time.
3 dated or humorous used in exclamations of surprise or dismay : holy smoke!

This was right out of my dictionary. Holy, like any other english word, has many meanings. Being set aside, being moral, being sacred are all different but valid explanations. Israel is a holy nation - but not in the moral aspect.

It is important that we look at Israel's purity because you brought up Esau's children. Israel's children and Esau's children were both sinners. But Israel was worst sinners because they knew better.

Yes, there is a such thing as a worst sinner. Israel had the law, they knew what they should do. But the rest of the world was ignorant to it. If you don't know you are sinning, how can you be judged as harshly for it compared to the person who knew they sinned?

Luke 12
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

That is why Israel is more wicked. Esau's children, sinners, yes, did not have the law. They do not know what they should do. Israel should have showed him, but instead he showed him how to sin by example, and knew better. May God have mercy on them, for they are very guilty.

So your explanation about Esau makes no sense. They were no worst than Israel.

God did not hate Esau. The saying is an idiom. God picked Jacob over Esau, giving him the promise, giving him the honor - but he did not do this for Esau. Just look at the context:

Malachi 1

Esau the man was not hated, but his name is not the chosen name. Israel, aka Jacob is. Israel lives on, but Esau does not. Israel is stronger than Esau was.. meaning the nations born from them. But God did not pick them because he foresaw they would be less evil, he picked them because he wanted to.

God used what happened to his descendants to illustrate to Israel how he has kept them... he wanted to show them how they were loved in contrast to other nations who fall apart. He wanted them to know this because they were sinning. He hoped by showing his love they would return love. But they did not.

You said it was the foreknowledge of Esau's children's sin that God based his hate for Esau... Read this:

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[e]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

God did not chose Jacob because of works... It was just his will to do so.:think:

Your answers, once again, do not hold true to scripture. ScpArmy, I appreciate your desire for God, but your ignorance is a hinderance to you. You use it to accuse those who shouldn't be accused. I have stuck closer to scripture than you have, yet you say I am wrong. But once again, I have discovered that you do not know scripture.. you only think you know it.

I don't know where you get these ideas from.. church, your head, your friends... but you listen to them before you checked the word. I hope you will reinvestigate scripture for yourself, and put aside what you think you know.

Please read this older post. You should be able to tell it is accurately represented, taken in context and exposes problems with the idea that God knows/plans the entire future. (Also, let me point out that there are some things God knows about the future... but there are also some things he does not know)

Most famous is Jonah and the Whale
Prophesied outcome:
Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”
Actual Outcome:
Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Prophesied outcome:
Joshua 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:
Actual Outcome:
Judges 2:20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
Judges 3:5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites.


Prophesied outcome:
Ezekiel 26: 7 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9 He will direct his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 Because of the abundance of his horses, their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen, the wagons, and the chariots, when he enters your gates, as men enter a city that has been breached. 11 With the hooves of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people by the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water. 13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more. 14 I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading nets, and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken,’ says the Lord GOD.
Actual Outcome:
Ezekiel 29:18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received wages from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it.

In addition, Tyre still stands to this day, 2500 years later. It has been rebuilt again and again.

Note this quote:
It was ... attacked by ... Nebuchadnezzar (586–573 BC) for thirteen years, without success, although a compromise peace was made in which Tyre paid tribute to the Babylonians.


Now read this verse:
Jeremiah 27:8
And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,’ says the LORD, ‘with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

Apparently, the condition was meet when Tyre submitted in some form to Nebuchadnezzar. Plus a remnant of Jews were escaping to Egypt around this time, retrieving them became a priority to God over Tyre.

Other Verses:
Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Jesus is quoted saying this many times. He planed on returning VERY soon, as in with in a few years. He predicted it twice in the verses above. But it didn't happen, obviously. Here is an example of why:

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

Israel never did come to faith. Only a handful did. Jesus is still waiting to this day.

This is all connected to Daniel as well.

Daniel 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
24 “ Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of[.b] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d]
Even in troublesome times.
26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

When you treat the weeks as years, and do the math on the number of years, you can actually count the exact number of years between The order to rebuild Jerusalem until Christ's death. Then the prophecy states that another 7 years will pass before the end comes.

Everything in this prophecy came to pass, except for the end and the antichrist.

It was supposed to happen, and it didn't... not yet anyway. Why? Freewill. God allows these prophecies to be conditional based on freewill.

 

[themuzicman]

Mal 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'​

Malachi was written hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau lived, and its force does not refer to God's personal love or hate for Esau the person, but for His choice of Jacob as a patriarch of Israel, rather than Esau, the patriarch of Edom.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

Mal 1:2 "I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals."

4 Edom may say, "Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins."
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: "They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, 'Great is the LORD -even beyond the borders of Israel!'​

Malachi was written hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau lived, and its force does not refer to God's personal love or hate for Esau the person, but for His choice of Jacob as a patriarch of Israel, rather than Esau, the patriarch of Edom.

Muz

Romans quotes Genesis and explicitly says it is about nations, not individuals (who represent nations in this case). Election is primarily corporate, not individual, and relates to mission/service, not individual salvation (except as part of the corporate identity i.e. God does not decree some to be saved or damned in eternity past apart from their existence and reception/rejection of truth...culpable vs arbitrary).

 

[themuzicman]

Romans quotes Genesis and explicitly says it is about nations, not individuals (who represent nations in this case). Election is primarily corporate, not individual, and relates to mission/service, not individual salvation (except as part of the corporate identity i.e. God does not decree some to be saved or damned in eternity past apart from their existence and reception/rejection of truth...culpable vs arbitrary).

Yeah. that. You said it better.

Muz

 

[Nang]

Yeah. that. You said it better.

Muz

Well, you are both wrong, and simply support each other's errors and lack of understanding of the makeup of Christ's church.

Anything "corporate" is made up of individual components.

Christ's church is one body consisting of many members; each vital to each other and subject to the functioning of the head.

Jacob represents an individual member in Christ's church body. Esau represents an outsider who is not a member of Christ's church body. In this sense, God loves Jacob and hates Esau.

The fact that both persons produced races of people has nothing to do with their initial and eternal standing with God. Jacob is forever positioned in Christ. Esau is forever cast off and separate from Christ.

This standing does not effect the two nationalities. Those from the seed of Jacob can still remain sinful unbelievers and suffer reprobation just like Esau. While the seed of Esau can be saved by the grace of God; believing in the Christ and being spiritually positioned in His church. For God has promised to save persons out of all nations, tribes, and peoples. (Rev. 5:9, 7:9)

If Godly election were corporate in nature, then only Jews would be favored by God and saved in Christ, and Arabs would all be reprobate, simply because of their nationalities. This is erroneous thinking and does not comport with the teacings of Holy Scripture or the Christian's commission to proclaim the gospel to all men without discrimination.

Nang

 

[godrulz]

Primarily corporate, obviously made up of individuals (secondary upon faith, not eternal decree).

 

[Nang]

Primarily corporate, obviously made up of individuals (secondary upon faith, not eternal decree).

What corporate entity, or nation, religion, family unit or even which Christian church has historically evidenced wholesale faith in God?

Doesn't happen.

No individual, let alone an entire nation, is capable or willing to have faith in God. Faith, by necessity, comes by the grace, decree, and power of God only to those whom He chooses to save.

Nang

 

[patman]

Anything "corporate" is made up of individual components.

So I can't plan for my Get Smart Fan Club until I know the names of every single individual who will join prior to it's formation?

 

[Nang]

So I can't plan for my Get Smart Fan Club until I know the names of every single individual who will join prior to it's formation?

Good point . . .indeed, you will remain ignorant of who might join your fan club, until they choose to join and then let you know they have joined.

However, the church of Jesus Christ, which represents the spiritual body of the Lord, consists of members chosen first by God. God knows exactly who believe in Him and who will be enjoined into His assembly of worship, compared to your sorry guessing about who might identify with your beliefs.

IOW's, God has a multitudinous and superior following of faithful elect, compared to those few you must campaign to gain to your side . . .

Nang

 

[patman]

Good point . . .indeed, you will remain ignorant of who might join your fan club, until they choose to join and then let you know they have joined.

However, the church of Jesus Christ, which represents the spiritual body of the Lord, consists of members chosen first by God. God knows exactly who believe in Him and who will be enjoined into His assembly of worship, compared to your sorry guessing about who might identify with your beliefs.

IOW's, God has a multitudinous and superior following of faithful elect, compared to those few you must campaign to gain to your side . . .

Nang

Nang,

There is nothing wrong about being in the minority. We will not always be a minority, tho. However, why do you speak of sides for? Aren't we both Christians?

And why do you call me ignorant? I have years of extensive study under my belt. You may be older than I am, but I might be able to learn more because I am not biased towards a certain belief. You have a huge blind spot... it is your unwillingness to consider another viewpoint.

Keep in mind that I used to believe as you did. An open heart allowed me to understand I could be wrong, and helped me switch to a new way of thinking.

If you will consider another viewpoint, think about this:

You present God as choosing the elect as though he choose you but didn't chose some other person. It is like heaven's doors are closed unless he calls you to enter. My understanding of scripture is the doors are open to everyone, so he chooses everyone - only not all are willing to be chosen.

Your belief system is the fuel for a fear that drives many people away from God. To many atheist resent christians for this belief. They think we use fear for faith, and therefore our faith is false. This is tragic.

Hell is spoken of as a place meant for the fallen angels. When God made hell, I don't think he intended for us to go there... I believe that it is only after the fall of man that it became an option for us, too.

God calls to us all to enter in. The club is for everyone. He doesn't have to guess who is invited, because he invites everyone. Those who are not called gave up their calling and traded it for the sins of this world.

No individual was ever chosen to be, "not called," by God... he desires that no one should perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

No guess work necessary! Only willing dropouts.

 

[Sharri]

Knight, you know it is set. Everything was planned in eternity past. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost planned the creation, its existence, and outcome in the eternity past.

When you say outcome in the eternity past, are you talking about what our outcome is in eternity (going to heaven or hell)?

Guess I'm not sure what it means.

 

[godrulz]

Scparmy: Are you supralapsarian?

 

[lee_merrill]

What corporate entity, or nation, religion, family unit or even which Christian church has historically evidenced wholesale faith in God?

So it's not about corporate election of nations here, righto...

 

[themuzicman]

What corporate entity, or nation, religion, family unit or even which Christian church has historically evidenced wholesale faith in God?

Doesn't happen.

Actually, one could say that the nation of Israel (the generation in Deuteronomy) corporately exercised faith in God in embracing their covenant. They were held accountable for it corporately.

Using this kind of logic, you would have to conclude that God was unjust in sending the whole nation of Israel into exile, even though some that believed were among those sent.

The nation of Israel was dealt with corporately, their faith evaluated corporately, and wrath meted out corporately.

So, you're flat out wrong, here.

Muz

 

[Sharri]

When you say outcome in the eternity past, are you talking about what our outcome is in eternity (going to heaven or hell)?

Guess I'm not sure what it means.

bump (for anyone)..

am I off base in asking this?..

 

[Clete]

When you say outcome in the eternity past, are you talking about what our outcome is in eternity (going to heaven or hell)?

Guess I'm not sure what it means.

The Calvinist is saying that and a lot more. Calvinism (and all other Augustinian theologies) teach that God predestined every event in the history of history. They believe and teach that every single event that happens, every orbit of every electron, the precise position and condition of every speck of dirt, every murder, every rape and every act of loving kindness and all the other events that have happened or will ever happen were all arbitrarily and absolutely determined by God before time began. If there is a booger on your lip its because God predestined that it would be there eons before the first eon began.

And just never mind about how saying "BEFORE time began" is self-contradictory. They don't care about that sort of detail. Just chalk it up as an antinomy and forget about it. After all, turning your brain off is the very definition of faith, isn't it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

Actually, one could say that the nation of Israel (the generation in Deuteronomy) corporately exercised faith in God in embracing their covenant. They were held accountable for it corporately.

What covenant? The Law? The nation of Israel never exhibited faith and/or obedience to the Law. They broke the Laws of God and exhibited unfaithfulness to God; thus they were exiled, perished, and were cast away (divorced) by God.

Using this kind of logic, you would have to conclude that God was unjust in sending the whole nation of Israel into exile, even though some that believed were among those sent.

You state the obvious and pertinent point, that God only favored a small remnant of Jews out of the nation of Israel. God has never given His grace and salvation to an entire nation or corporate body of anykind.

The nation of Israel was dealt with corporately, their faith evaluated corporately, and wrath meted out corporately.

So, you're flat out wrong, here.

Muz

No Muz, you are flat out wrong. God dealt with Israel as a nation (in judgment), but only saved an elect remnant from out of their midst. If God dealt corporately with Israel as you contend, then all Jews perish in their sins . . .and you cannot claim such a nonsensical notion:

"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11:5

Can't have it both ways. Godly election and salvation is particular by nature in every instance. God saves only some particular people out of all the world, drawing them out of all the various nations, and electing them out of families; sometimes even choosing between marriage partners to bestow His grace.



Nang

 

[Nang]

When you say outcome in the eternity past, are you talking about what our outcome is in eternity (going to heaven or hell)?

Guess I'm not sure what it means.

God sovereignly predestinated the fate of all humankind. That is what the Bible teaches:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called . . ." Romans 9:21-24a

And, because the fate of all men is determined, so are the lives of all men ordained by the rule of God.

This doctrine is hated by men at large because sinners desire to control their own destinies and cling to the lie that they have the free will to do so. But man is not the captain of his fate. God is King. God determines life and death; both physical and spiritual; both temporal and eternal.

Nang

 

[Clete]

Sharri,

Read post 4 of the following thread. It proves that Nang doesn't know what she's talking about.

One on One: Romans 9

 

[themuzicman]

What covenant? The Law? The nation of Israel never exhibited faith and/or obedience to the Law. They broke the Laws of God and exhibited unfaithfulness to God; thus they were exiled, perished, and were cast away (divorced) by God.

Never? Ever read Chronicles? Ever heard of King David?

Furthermore, they were corporately elected, because the covenant was specifically taken for this generation and their children. They were corporately elected to the Old Covenant by birth. (Others chose to join, as well, but this is the primary method of election.)

You state the obvious and pertinent point, that God only favored a small remnant of Jews out of the nation of Israel. God has never given His grace and salvation to an entire nation or corporate body of anykind.

No Muz, you are flat out wrong. God dealt with Israel as a nation (in judgment), but only saved an elect remnant from out of their midst. If God dealt corporately with Israel as you contend, then all Jews perish in their sins . . .and you cannot claim such a nonsensical notion:

"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11:5

This is speaking specifically in reference to God's fulfillment of the promises to Israel, and more specifically to the blindness of Israel to their messiah. It doesn't have a wider application than that.

Can't have it both ways. Godly election and salvation is particular by nature in every instance. God saves only some particular people out of all the world, drawing them out of all the various nations, and electing them out of families; sometimes even choosing between marriage partners to bestow His grace.

LOL... You take a specific passage to deal with God's promises to Israel, and then want to apply them to everyone? Sorry, but that's a huge textual error.

Muz