ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Sharri]

God sovereignly predestinated the fate of all humankind. That is what the Bible teaches:

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called . . ." Romans 9:21-24a

And, because the fate of all men is determined, so are the lives of all men ordained by the rule of God.

This doctrine is hated by men at large because sinners desire to control their own destinies and cling to the lie that they have the free will to do so. But man is not the captain of his fate. God is King. God determines life and death; both physical and spiritual; both temporal and eternal.

Nang

I don't see where the Bible says that free will is a lie.

 

[Sharri]

Sharri,

Read post 4 of the following thread. It proves that Nang doesn't know what she's talking about.

One on One: Romans 9

thanks Clete,
I'll be back shortly

 

[Nang]

I don't see where the Bible says that free will is a lie.

Sharri,

Where does the Bible teach "free" will?

Yes, man was created willful, and responsible to exercise moral agency, but always under submission to the sovereign will and commands of God. Man was never created "free" to willfully disobey God.

Nang

 

[Nang]

Never? Ever read Chronicles? Ever heard of King David?

King David was an individual and therefore an example of particular grace. Not all the kings of Israel/Judah were saved; only a very few, David being one.

Furthermore, they were corporately elected, because the covenant was specifically taken for this generation and their children. They were corporately elected to the Old Covenant by birth. (Others chose to join, as well, but this is the primary method of election.)

No, the old covenant was the covenant of works established with Adam, under moral and eternal law. The Mosaic covenant (Decalogue) was further revelation of the original, old covenant of works and Law. All men born into this world are born of Adam and thus accountable to God under the old covenant of works and moral law . . .not just the nation of Israel.

This is a dispensational teaching that is quite erroneous and that causes much confusion. :down:

Nang

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This is a dispensational teaching that is quite erroneous and that causes much confusion. :down:

Nang

It's pretty clear to all people, dispensational and non-dispensational,
that the only people whom God made a covenant with based on the Law
is Israel. This covenant is made old, when the new comes.

 

[Nang]

It's pretty clear to all people, dispensational and non-dispensational,
that the only people whom God made a covenant with based on the Law
is Israel. This covenant is made old, when the new comes.

This is incorrect, STP.

All the sons of Adam are born into this world accountable under the laws of God. "Thou shalt not murder" applies universally to all, not just to Jews.

This old covenant becomes obsolete when and if God regenerates a sinner to new spiritual life. That sinner, through the imputation of Christ's righteousness, is transferred from obligation under the old covenant, to a life of liberty under the new covenant of grace.

IOW's, one is either condemned to death by the old or is promised everlasting life by the new.

Dispensationalists have muddied the waters by teaching that the Mosaic Law was established with the nation of Israel alone. This is not true. The Mosaic Law was simply further revelation of God's eternal law and commands established with Adam in the garden. God elected the nation of Israel out of the world to handle His legal ordinances as a "peculiar" witness to all the other nations.

But this witness of the Law through the Jews acted to condemn all unbelievers and wicked men in the world.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Romans 3:19

Nang

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Nevertheless, Nang, the covenant was only made with Israel. This is clear
in the scriptures.

 

[Nang]

Nevertheless, Nang, the covenant was only made with Israel. This is clear
in the scriptures.

Where? What? What was the purpose of the laws and ordinances of God? To save the Jews? Nonsense. The covenant between God and the nation of Israel was a witness to His eternal law and their unfaithfulness and inability to find life according to works.

The Mosaic Covenant was a reiteration of the old covenant of works under which all men are condemned and declared guilty before God.

"Therefore, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

Nang

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The covenant between God and the nation of Israel
Nang

:thumb:

 

[godrulz]

I don't see where the Bible says that free will is a lie.

Free will is self-evident and part of the image of God in man.

Calvinistic compatibilism makes it illusory in order to hold a monothetic view of God's will and sovereignty with the disastrous consequence of making Him responsible for heinous evil.

 

[themuzicman]

King David was an individual and therefore an example of particular grace. Not all the kings of Israel/Judah were saved; only a very few, David being one.

See, now you're playing word games. The "election" to the Old Covenant had nothing to do with their salvation. It had to do with how they "got into" the Old Covenant. Those born of those in the Old Covenant were under the Old Covenant.
Again, nothing to do with salvation.

David was saved because he believed in God, just as Abraham, and God's election of those who are saved is corporate in nature, in that it includes all who believe. No individual CHOOSING by God necessary.

No, the old covenant was the covenant of works established with Adam, under moral and eternal law. The Mosaic covenant (Decalogue) was further revelation of the original, old covenant of works and Law. All men born into this world are born of Adam and thus accountable to God under the old covenant of works and moral law . . .not just the nation of Israel.

Uhh.. not exactly. First, the Mosaic covenant includes the Levitical Priesthood, cleanliness laws (I assume you spend one week a month outside of your camp, right?), and an extensive civil law, including penalties. That's the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant does reflect the eternal moral laws (do not kill, etc.), but is its own distinct Covenant with Israel.

This is a dispensational teaching that is quite erroneous and that causes much confusion. :down:

Well, this is where the dispensationalists are half right. The Old Covenant IS established with Israel and only binding on Israel. The Old Covenant isn't just the Decalogue[/i].

Where the dispensationalists go wrong is the same place where you go wrong: Salvation does not come through the Old Covenant. It never has. Ninevah was saved apart from the Old Covenant. Salvation is and always has been by grace through faith. My OT prof said it best when he said that the Old Covenant Law was intended as sanctification, not justification.

Muz

 

[themuzicman]

Where? What? What was the purpose of the laws and ordinances of God? To save the Jews? Nonsense. The covenant between God and the nation of Israel was a witness to His eternal law and their unfaithfulness and inability to find life according to works.

The Mosaic Covenant was a reiteration of the old covenant of works under which all men are condemned and declared guilty before God.

"Therefore, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

Nang

For good or bad, Paul uses "law" in a couple of different ways, and you have to watch context carefully to catch it. "Law" in Romans is generally the standard of righteousness one would need to attain in order to meet God's standard and receive salvation. However, all sin (Rom 3:23), and Paul sets that statement up with 3:20, clearly stating that one can be justified, because we all have knowledge of the law, and all violate the law. That's the point of Romans 2 and 3.

So, when you catch what Paul means by "law", these become clearer.

Muz

 

[Nang]

For good or bad, Paul uses "law" in a couple of different ways, and you have to watch context carefully to catch it. "Law" in Romans is generally the standard of righteousness one would need to attain in order to meet God's standard and receive salvation. However, all sin (Rom 3:23), and Paul sets that statement up with 3:20, clearly stating that one can be justified, because we all have knowledge of the law, and all violate the law. That's the point of Romans 2 and 3.

So, when you catch what Paul means by "law", these become clearer.

Muz

"See, now you're playing word games."

:ha:

 

[themuzicman]

"See, now you're playing word games."

:ha:

Actually, Paul does that, to some extent, because he's addressing a mixed audience, but he makes himself clear when you read it in context.

Muz

 

[Nang]

See, now you're playing word games. The "election" to the Old Covenant had nothing to do with their salvation.

There is no such language, "the election to the old covenant," in the Bible.

Adam was created under a covenant of works, established by legal and Godly commands (Law).

Do you argue this fact?

It had to do with how they "got into" the Old Covenant. Those born of those in the Old Covenant were under the Old Covenant.

Who are all humans born from? The creation of God through Adam, right? That is how all men are born under the old covenant of works (Law).
Again, nothing to do with salvation.

David was saved because he believed in God, just as Abraham, and God's election of those who are saved is corporate in nature, in that it includes all who believe. No individual CHOOSING by God necessary.

God calls and draws individuals to faith in His Son. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 This language of promise is singular and particular, not general and/or plural.

Uhh.. not exactly. First, the Mosaic covenant includes the Levitical Priesthood, cleanliness laws (I assume you spend one week a month outside of your camp, right?), and an extensive civil law, including penalties. That's the Old Covenant.

Uhh . . .not exactly. The Levitical priesthood and all the temple ordinances are types of the Christ. They are copies and examples of the heavenly truths of the promised Savior's priesthood and atoning sacrifice:

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. . . It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 8:5, 9:23

The Old Covenant does reflect the eternal moral laws (do not kill, etc.), but is its own distinct Covenant with Israel.

Paul's language in his epistle to the Roman church in chapter three, verses 19 & 20, disagree with you. All men fall short of the glory of God. The Law declares all men guilty before God.

Well, this is where the dispensationalists are half right. The Old Covenant IS established with Israel and only binding on Israel. The Old Covenant isn't just the Decalogue[/i].

Where the dispensationalists go wrong is the same place where you go wrong: Salvation does not come through the Old Covenant. It never has.

I never said salvation can be acquired under the old covenant of works and law. That is my argument. And you are correct . . ."it never has."

Ninevah was saved apart from the Old Covenant.

Ninevah was not entirely saved. Ninevah was temporarily spared judgment and God bestowed grace upon many, saving them out of that wicked city, which He eventually destroyed because of sin and unbelief.

I agree, though, that the salvation of Ninevites was apart from the old covenant. All the individuals saved by the grace of God out of the city of Ninevah, were saved according to the new covenant that offers everlasting life through faith in the promised provisions of God.

Salvation is and always has been by grace through faith.

Amen! A point of agreement!!!

My OT prof said it best when he said that the Old Covenant Law was intended as sanctification, not justification.

What good is a sanctification that does not save? Indeed, God delivered and sanctified the nation of Israel, setting them apart from all the nations of the world that surrounded them. And God did so according to the commandments given to Moses, which were further revelation of the old covenant of works and law.

But this deliverance and sanctication (and even a wholesale baptism in the Red Sea) did not save (or justifiy and forgive) national Israel as a corporate whole.

Only a very small remnant of particular Jews were forgiven their sins by the grace of God under the new covenant that gives sinners faith to believe Godly provisions of everlasting life.

Nang

 

[godrulz]

It's about time you got back in the saddle, Muz.:yoshi:

 

[themuzicman]

There is no such language, "the election to the old covenant," in the Bible.

There is no such language "the election to the new covenant", either.

Adam was created under a covenant of works, established by legal and Godly commands (Law).

Do you argue this fact?

A covenant of works? I don't see any covenant being established before the fall. It's just God and His creation, who did not have knowledge of good and evil, but only knew not to eat of the TKGE, and to be fruitful, multiply, and to fill the earth and subdue it.

Those were the ongoing conditions of their ongoing innocence before God.

Who are all humans born from? The creation of God through Adam, right? That is how all men are born under the old covenant of works (Law).
Again, nothing to do with salvation.

Um... A&E had no knowledge of the law until they ate from the tree. And even then, there is no "covenant of works." It's just right and wrong. The first "Covenant" we see is probably with Cain with the mark on his forehead. The first significant covenant is with Noah after the flood.

God calls and draws individuals to faith in His Son. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 This language of promise is singular and particular, not general and/or plural.

It's not a promise at all. It's a statement of who is able to come to Christ. If we read the next verse, we see "They shall ALL be taught of God." That's corporate. The condition, then, is "The one who hears and obeys" comes to Christ.

So, your exegesis is just plain wrong, and ignores the larger context.

Uhh . . .not exactly. The Levitical priesthood and all the temple ordinances are types of the Christ. They are copies and examples of the heavenly truths of the promised Savior's priesthood and atoning sacrifice:

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. . . It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." Hebrews 8:5, 9:23

That says nothing of being types of Christ.

I also find it interesting when you skip a chapter and a half with "..."

3For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was (L)warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."​

Notice that we're not talking about the entire Levitical law, but only the High Priests.

And then we go into chatper 9:

19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with (BG)water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU." 21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;​

This, OTOH is speaking of the shedding of blood, and, again, not of the Levitical law as a whole, nor is it speaking of High Priests. So, your claims regarding these verses are thoroughly refuted.

Paul's language in his epistle to the Roman church in chapter three, verses 19 & 20, disagree with you. All men fall short of the glory of God. The Law declares all men guilty before God.

Not quite. Again, Paul's use of law refers to the absolute morality of God and not the Mosaic covenant or any other covenant.

I never said salvation can be acquired under the old covenant of works and law. That is my argument. And you are correct . . ."it never has."

THank you for conceding that point.

Ninevah was not entirely saved. Ninevah was temporarily spared judgment and God bestowed grace upon many, saving them out of that wicked city, which He eventually destroyed because of sin and unbelief.

But there were those there who believed apart from the Mosaic covenant.

What good is a sanctification that does not save?

Sanctification is the purification of our minds through renewal (Romans 12:1-2, et al.) It is the result of salvation, rather than the cause of it.

Indeed, God delivered and sanctified the nation of Israel, setting them apart from all the nations of the world that surrounded them. And God did so according to the commandments given to Moses, which were further revelation of the old covenant of works and law.

But this deliverance and sanctication (and even a wholesale baptism in the Red Sea) did not save (or justifiy and forgive) national Israel as a corporate whole.

I find it odd that you ask what good sanctification it, and then note that justification is the mode of salvation. You're contradicting yourself.

Only a very small remnant of particular Jews were forgiven their sins by the grace of God under the new covenant that gives sinners faith to believe Godly provisions of everlasting life.

True enough. But that's specific to that remnant.

Muz

 

[themuzicman]

It's about time you got back in the saddle, Muz.:yoshi:

Yeah, life happens... :comeout:

Michael

 

[Sharri]

The Calvinist is saying that and a lot more. Calvinism (and all other Augustinian theologies) teach that God predestined every event in the history of history. They believe and teach that every single event that happens, every orbit of every electron, the precise position and condition of every speck of dirt, every murder, every rape and every act of loving kindness and all the other events that have happened or will ever happen were all arbitrarily and absolutely determined by God before time began. If there is a booger on your lip its because God predestined that it would be there eons before the first eon began.

And just never mind about how saying "BEFORE time began" is self-contradictory. They don't care about that sort of detail. Just chalk it up as an antinomy and forget about it. After all, turning your brain off is the very definition of faith, isn't it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

If this is the case (hypotetically saying) this would mean that God created free will to be evil, and the first case of free will shown in the Bible, is where the serpent deceives God, and then deceives (tempts) Eve in the Garden.

Did God predestined free will to be evil?
If God has sovereignly predestinated the fate of all humankind, why would he give us free will?

 

[Nang]

A covenant of works? I don't see any covenant being established before the fall.

I suppose you do not see any Godly commands being issued, either.

Obedience to God's commands is an expected work. The establishment of law and works came as a covenant: God told Adam obedience and partaking of Godly blessings alone would produce life; disobedience and partaking of what is forbidden and evil would produce death. (Genesis 2:16&17)

This is the covenant that Adam (representing all mankind as their federal head) broke:

"But they like men (i.e. "Adam") have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me." Hosea 6:7


(And check the Hebrew word used for "men" in this verse, before you argue. It is the same word used in Genesis speaking of the creation and naming of "Adam.")

Because the first Adam transgressed this covenant, the last Adam came into the world to fulfill this covenant on behalf of his people, who are the natural descendents of the "covenant-transgressor."

It was necessary the first ("old") covenant be fulfilled so that "new" covenant grace and reconciliation be accomplished between God and men. Both covenants performed by the Son of Man, Jesus Christ.

Um... A&E had no knowledge of the law until they ate from the tree. And even then, there is no "covenant of works." It's just right and wrong. The first "Covenant" we see is probably with Cain with the mark on his forehead. The first significant covenant is with Noah after the flood.

All later covenants are the product of the covenant of works being transgressed. It is unorthodox Christian teaching to deny the covenant of works, for thereby, the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ unto death has no purpose or meaning.

It's not a promise at all. It's a statement of who is able to come to Christ. If we read the next verse, we see "They shall ALL be taught of God." That's corporate. The condition, then, is "The one who hears and obeys" comes to Christ.

So, your exegesis is just plain wrong, and ignores the larger context.

No, my exegesis is correct. God saves individuals (in this context, Greeks as well as the Jews in the audience), by the teaching of the word of God that is understood through the Holy Spirit of God. All the elect are "taught of God," by God's Spirit, Himself.

This, OTOH is speaking of the shedding of blood, and, again, not of the Levitical law as a whole, nor is it speaking of High Priests. So, your claims regarding these verses are thoroughly refuted.

Not so. You are nit-picking in order to avoid the big picture of the entire tabernacle and temple worship system, established by God, to typify and example His promises of the Messiah.

If you do not see and learn of Jesus Christ by reading the O.T. details regarding blood atonement, priesthoods, and worship ordinances, you are missing many spiritual blessings and are very vulnerable to misunderstanding the accomplishment of the Son of God who came as Prophet, Priest, and King.

Sanctification is the purification of our minds through renewal (Romans 12:1-2, et al.)

For regenerated saints, yes, sanctification cleanses the heart, mind, and will of Christians. That is the particular working of sanctification through the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit in believers.

But the general definition of sanctification, is being "set apart for God." And Scriptural history reveals God often sanctified persons for His purposes, without regenerating them unto salvation or cleansing them from their sins at all.


For example, the entire nation of Israel was "sanctified" unto God as a peculiar people to bear His ordinances and witness as being the One True God. But only a very small remnant of persons were forgiven their sins and gifted with faith to believe in the promises of God. Only these were sanctified by the indwelling presence of God's Spirit, and walked in actual holiness and righteousness.

It is the result of salvation, rather than the cause of it.

Sanctification does not always justify. Sanctification does not guarantee justification. Justification always guarantees and produces sanctification, however.

True enough. But that's specific to that remnant.

Yep. . .

Nang