ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Clete

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OVers,

If it could be proven that EDF doesn't eliminate free will choices, would Open View
still exist? This seems to be the main point of contention...
If it could be proven that EDF is rationally compatible with the ability to do otherwise then that would only prove that EDF is compatible with an open future.

The ability to do otherwise is a necessary condition for most of the concepts that make up what we consider to be the Christian faith. Concepts like, morality, justice, righteousness, love etc all depend entirely upon the ability to do otherwise. That is to say that all such concepts would be rendered meaningless if the principle of alternative possibilities (i.e. "PAP") is false.

The PAP states that agent S is responsible for its being the case that p only if S could have made it not the case that p.​

I'm not sure that the often used syllogism proves that free will choices are eliminated. It just proves that what is foreknown is carried out.
Presume that T = You will answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am.
(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of "infallibility"]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of "necessary"]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
source

If that line of reasoning is faulty then demonstrate the fault. Otherwise, in order to maintain a rational doctrine, you should concede the point and adjust your doctrine accordingly.

As far as I can tell, EDF is no different than a videotape that has recorded
past free will choices made by men...only it's of future free will choices.
The difference is that a videotape was made at the time the choices were being made and EDF happens BEFORE they are made. That's a huge difference as I hope the above reasoning demonstrates.

The point might be seen if you consider whether it is possible for a person to undo that which happens on the video tape? The necessity of the past is a well established principle. You cannot not do what you've already done and so, as you say, EDF would be similar in that you cannot not do an action that is foreknown. Thus EDF and free will are mutually exclusive concepts because EDF implies a condition that necessarily falsifies free will. The only way around it is to redefine free will, but to do that means destroying the meaning of those other concepts I mentioned like morality, righteousness, justice and love. Either that or you'd have to start redefining all of those concepts as well, as Calvinists actually do in some cases. Ackham's razor is getting sharper by the minute!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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lee_merrill

New member
Why do you say "most" will be saved?
I meant this verse, and this time:

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

But how can this be known, especially given that now only a remnant in Israel will be saved?
 

lee_merrill

New member
It is not my interpretation. The word is Nacham which means repent - period...
Did you not read the Strong's entry?

Strong's is not a lexicon, its a concordance...
I have the book, and it is a concordance with Greek and Hebrew lexicons and other information.

He's affiliated with the Church of Christ, which means he's probably an Arminian but like I said a moment ago, for my dime, its virtually the same thing.
Now I've heard everything...

When I want your opinion about my personal conduct I'll ask for it, otherwise you can stick your personal opinions where the Sun don't shine for all I care.

Demonstrate the contradiction or keep these silly unsupported comments to yourself.

Therefore, either you are a liar or God is.

Only in your warped little excuse for a brain.

You are truly stupid. This nonsense isn't even worth responding too.
No it isn't--you are now on my ignore list, Clete.

Best wishes though,
Lee
 

Clete

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Can you prove this?
If you mean "Can you prove that God does not exist outside of time?" then yes, I can and have many times....

Existence outside of time is an oxymoron because the very concept of existence itself presupposes duration. Duration is time. That is, when we speak about time, we are talking about the duration of events. Thus to deny time while discussing existence is to commit a stolen concept fallacy in that you are acknowledging the veracity of one concept while denying the veracity of another concept upon which the first is rationally based. It's similar to insisting that you live in a brick house while denying the existence of the clay that bricks are made of. It's a contradiction and cannot be true.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Clete

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Did you not read the Strong's entry?
Yes, of course I read it.

The word 'nacham' means repent - period.

I have the book, and it is a concordance with Greek and Hebrew lexicons and other information.
I have two copies of the book and often refer to the online version. It says right on the cover that its a concordance. It is not a lexicon of either language as it does not contain every word in either language nor how to translate every word into English as a lexicon would.

Definition of the word lexicon

Now I've heard everything...
Does this mean you concede the point or simply that you're astonished that I know who this guy is and who he's affiliated with?

You should be careful when you drop names when you don't know the first thing about the person you're quoting and defending your convoluted doctrine based on what he says. It's hardly a slam dunk point when the guy shares your same theology and therefore your same bias.

No it isn't--you are now on my ignore list, Clete.

Best wishes though,
Lee
"Good!" and "I don't believe you.", respectively.

It's not as if you weren't intentionally wasting my time anyway.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

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I meant this verse, and this time:

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

But how can this be known, especially given that now only a remnant in Israel will be saved?

Lee, the master of lexicons, doesn't seem to understand that the word "all", in spite of its dictionary definition, almost never means "every last one" and more often than not is a figure of speech that means "some" or "quite a few" or in the case of the above Romans passage, "a significant portion of".

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Lee, the master of lexicons, doesn't seem to understand that the word "all", in spite of its dictionary definition, almost never means "every last one" and more often than not is a figure of speech that means "some" or "quite a few" or in the case of the above Romans passage, "a significant portion of".

Resting in Him,
Clete

Is there more to the story? He has a bee in his bonnet and needs to be refuted once and for all. He misses the forest for this hobby horse tree.
 

patman

Active member
I meant this verse, and this time:

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

But how can this be known, especially given that now only a remnant in Israel will be saved?

Lee, we are the remnant. We are Israel's way back, Israel's hope.

During Elijah's time, it seemed like the entire nation turned away from God. Elijah believed he was the only one left who worshiped him. But God had thousands of people Elijah didn't know about, who would keep Israel from total rejection. They were a remnant for Israel, a hope that Israel could still serve God.

Gentile Christians are like those thousands. We are like that remnant.

That is what Paul is saying here.

God is going to use us (until we achieve our "fullness") to provoke Israel to Jealousy. So they might see what we Gentiles have been given in God, desire it, and receive the gift of grace too.

The "remnant" is not a prophecy of the number of people to be saved.

Then, when he wins enough of Israel back, he will begin to judge the world until he returns. When he does that, he will be king of Israel and from there govern the world.

And then he will have saved "all" Israel. By all, Paul is not referring to every Jew past present and future, but all as in "all those present at that time." The entire nation will be his. No longer will God need a remnant of any kind.

How can he accomplish this? Because he is LORD. Do you know what a lord is? God is not 'a' lord, he is 'THE' Lord. Nothing can with hold him, nothing can subdue him. Not you, not I, not a zillion yous or mes.

He doesn't need future knowledge to accomplish his desire to be king over Israel.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Presume that T = You will answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am.
(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of "infallibility"]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of "necessary"]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
source

If that line of reasoning is faulty then demonstrate the fault. Otherwise, in order to maintain a rational doctrine, you should concede the point and adjust your doctrine accordingly.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Can you change "cannot do otherwise" to "will not"?
I would accept that. I can do otherwise, it would just be foreknown.
 

Clete

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Can you change "cannot do otherwise" to "will not"?
I would accept that. I can do otherwise, it would just be foreknown.

No STP, I'm sorry but you can't change "cannot do otherwise" to "will not do otherwise". You can't do that because of the definition of the word "necessary". Once a thing is known, it is settled; there is no longer any choice to be made. It has become a rational necessity just like your video tape of the past. It's not that it will not be changed, it's that it cannot be changed.

I mean, I understand why you might want for it to be changed from 'cannot' to 'will not' but you can't do that and maintain a rational worldview. Insisting that you simply will not change an exhaustively foreknown future action rather than that you cannot change it is exactly like insisting that you will not change the past rather than that you cannot change the past. It just doesn't make sense.

A proposition is logically necessary if it is not logically possible for it to be false. - source

You cannot do that which is logically impossible, wouldn't you agree? God can do a great many things that are impossible for men to do but not even God can do the logically impossible nor can He choose not do that which is a logical necessity.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
OVers,

If it could be proven that EDF doesn't eliminate free will choices, would Open View
still exist? This seems to be the main point of contention...

Yes, it would. The settled view still does not represent God's relationship to mankind in a valid way.

I'm not sure that the often used syllogism proves that free will choices are eliminated. It just proves that what is foreknown is carried out.

Exactly. It is carried out just as it is foreknown. There is no choice.

Muz
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
As far as I can tell, EDF is no different than a videotape that has recorded
past free will choices made by men...only it's of future free will choices.

Except that as the video tape is being played, the people on the tape cannot choose. Do your videos change what they choose every time you play them?

Muz
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Can you change "cannot do otherwise" to "will not"?
I would accept that. I can do otherwise, it would just be foreknown.

The proof includes the idea that we as human beings are limited by time, and that foreknowledge of our actions means that this knowledge comes before we choose. Thus, were we to do other than what was foreknown, the foreknowledge would be inaccurate, and thus not foreknowledge.

You can't claim that X comes after Y and X comes before Y without violating the law of non-contradiction.

Muz
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Exactly. It is carried out just as it is foreknown. There is no choice.

Muz

There is a choice, it's just foreknown.

To say "cannot do otherwise" is like saying that if God knows I will answer the phone at 9 that a mysterious force will drag me out of my lazyboy and force my hand to pick up the receiver.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
There is a choice, it's just foreknown.

Again, chicken/egg issue. In order for knowledge of a choice to be certain the decision must be made. However, foreknowledge says that the knowledge comes BEFORE the decision.

Which came first? FOREknowledge, or decision?

To say "cannot do otherwise" is like saying that if God knows I will answer the phone at 9 that a mysterious force will drag me out of my lazyboy and force my hand to pick up the receiver.

That's exactly what it's saying (minus mysterious). And that's exactly what the logical proof demonstrates.

Muz
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Again, chicken/egg issue. In order for knowledge of a choice to be certain the decision must be made. However, foreknowledge says that the knowledge comes BEFORE the decision.

Which came first? FOREknowledge, or decision?



That's exactly what it's saying (minus mysterious). And that's exactly what the logical proof demonstrates.

Muz

I must reject the syllogism, because it starts off with God knew T.
To be accurate, it should say, God knew I would choose T.
 
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