ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[RobE]

How could God know one of twelve would betray him?

Because He set it up that way, and He's very smart..

You're right! He is very smart. However; 'How' exactly did God set up Judas for destruction? Especially when it's God's stated desire that ALL would be saved.

 

[lee_merrill]

As sure as any of God's prophecies. Isn't that obvious?

But if God says "This will certainly happen," and it doesn't, then that's false prophecy, so his prophecies saying "this is sure," must be sure indeed.

Also, if God says "I tell you the truth" to Peter when he knows it might not be true, that is telling a lie.

So prophecy when it's unconditional, cannot be an estimate.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken.

Sadly enough, the Open View directly contradicts this Scripture.

 

[patman]

Cut to the chase. You can be truthful here. OV believes specifically that God foreknows what He has decided to accomplish (He foreknows because He determines it to happen). According to OV, God does not and cannot know any future contigency of any man because man has sovereign free-will choice (again according to OV called "Libertarian Free Will (LFW)."


Play your cards up on the table. It took me 4+ months to get anywhere with near understanding the OV clearly enough to discuss issues. All the rest is hidden behind vagueness. Spell it out and put all the cards on the table. Ours are easily on the table for all to see, do likewise please.

-Please correct me if need be, I'm just trying to help make things clear and upfront for Pariah.


See, you are a global thinker too. That's good, but remember not all are as you and I. Most just like the straight forward answer first and the analogy after. Hit the idea in one short sentence, then punch up the analogy.



OV: "God can predict with great accuracy, but He cannot know man's free-will actions. He does not know any future certainty but what He, Himself has determined. The OV believes God has determined to place some determinism in man's hands."

"The God of OT (Open Theism) hopes because He does not know for certain."
Again, correct or clarify as needed Pman.
Your passage from Ezekiel addressed this rather well from both our perspectives.


Not true. See here, here, [URL="http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35394&page=8"]here[/URL], here, and here (limited to five because I kinda like the cadence).

You and I discussed this very recently.



In Jonah 4, Jonah certainly foresaw. How is it that Jonah could and God could not?


On this last point we are in agreement. The mark of a Godly dream or vision
1) Will produce godly character and trust within the individual 2) Will be clearly from God 3) may or may not be a vision 'to share with others' 4) Will be validated and in full agreement with scriptural truths

Some see dreaming of dreams as extent (over with) today as His Revelation is complete. Pray about it and what to do with it. Many with dreams and visions were met with ridicule, anger, and/or doubt. Because this is usually how such is met, I caution to ensure that this is what God intends. Some are meant only for the hearer (i.e. Samuel). Others bring trouble even when we follow God's command (Joseph and Jeremiah). Make sure, pray much, weigh the cost verses doing what God is telling you. Because God's revelation to us is complete, it should coincide strongly with scriptures.

Lon,

Another reason I hate links is because they often do not work for me. I have TOL show me the last post first, instead of the first post first. Not that I love the "last shall be first" verse, but I find there is less clicking and it saves time to see the latest posts on a thread.

So in a 400 page post, page 50 for you is page 350 for me, and this changes as the thread grows in size... When you link to a page, I don't see what you wanted me to see, plus I have to read around to get the point.

When I link, I use the actual post itself, and I usually take the part from the quote I want others to see, then they can follow the link as a reference.
:thumb:

Moving on

My cards have always been on the table. I have hidden nothing, and risked my pride to show everything I believe. I do not know how to make it any clearer. So I will try something I never do on here, I will use your words against you. Sorry.

You asked, "How is it that Jonah could[know Nineveh's actions] and God could not?"

Good question. So you are now saying that Jonah knows the entire future(sorry)? If Jonah could tell that Nineveh would be spared, even in the face of God telling him, "No, they will be destroyed in 40 days," if you use your reasoning, Jonah must have exhaustive foreknowledge.

Jonah knew that it would happen. How else could he know besides 100% foreknowledge? Even in spite of thousands of human freewill actions and he got the future right! It must be a miracle. It can only be foreknowledge in perfect form.

After all, he was a prophet, and prophets are known to see the future! He must be able to see all of it.

.........................

Sorry. Again.

But don't you see? Just replace "Jonah" with "God" and you have the basic S.V. argument. But it doesn't work when I put Jonah in there. It is a faulty argument. Saying A foresaw B, A does not know the entire future.

Again, I can use the word know against you.

Your entire quote said, "In Jonah 4, Jonah certainly foresaw. How is it that Jonah could and God could not?"

The verse in Jonah 4 is:
Jonah 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.."

Jonah knew God would relent. Before it happened, he knew it! So how is it Jonah knows the future, Lon? Tell me, how did Jonah know? You say he guessed? But he was right, so did he "know" know or did he sorta "know"? How does Jonah know the future?

How do you know that Jonah knew? Were you there? How do you know there is a God? Did you see him? Did you have a nice conversation with him? Did he show you his face? Did he show you a sign when you saw him? Or do you know in a different way?

How do you know the bible is true? Evidence? How do you know it is solid evidence? Did you see creation happen? Were you there for the exodus? Did you see Jesus turn water into wine, or pour out his blood like a fine drink and offer it to the 12? Were you there when your evidence was developed in history so you can be so certain that it is right?

No, I don't want you to answer these questions. Don't, actually. Because you weren't there. You have not had a 2 way conversation over a cup of tea with God, you go on everything you KnoW by faith. You know by faith! Even your evidence... faith. Yes, faith. So do you REALLLY know?

Did Jonah REALLLY know? Well he was right, and so are you. So what you know by faith, guess what? You know it, because to know something it must be true.

I know 2+2=4. You knew that. When I was in kindergarden, my teacher gave the class M&M's. She made us split them up into numbers. I had 2 M&Ms in this cup, and 2 M&M's in the other cup. When I poured the one cup into another, I had 4 in the same cup.

Now, because I saw that happen, I will forever know that if I have 2 of anything and add 2 more of the same thing, I get 4.

So there are at least two kinds of "knowing something." One takes faith, one takes principal. I can accurately predict that 2+2 will =4, and always be right, because that is how it is.

I can also accurately predict that God is God because of faith. Even thought I never touched his face with my hand and felt his feet as I bow to the ground in prayer. What I know in faith, I know.

So Why can't God know the future the same way? Why can't God do what Jonah did?

Here is what messes with you.... could Jonah have been wrong? Is it to far fetched to say that Nineveh wouldn't listen? Could they have shrugged him off and went on in their sins?

Is Nineveh much better than Jerusalem? When Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem, God warned and warned, prophet after prophet, and they didn't listen. God finally had to punish them. Now knowing that, could Nineveh potentially closed their ears to God? Yes, but as it happened, they didn't. Jonah could have been wrong!

So sometimes, you take a chance, knowing something by faith. You could be right, you could be wrong. But when you were right, you take credit for knowing it before it happened, don't you?

My neighbor has a dog he trained to shake hands. He knew that if he held out his hand, his dog would shake his hand. He did it many times before. And when he said, "Watch him shake my hand," and held out his hand, the dog just looked at him with his tongue hanging out of his mouth.

So even though he said "watch this happen" and it didn't happen, he thought he knew he would, but it turned out he didn't know. But had he actually shook his hand, he truly did know.

So, which way of knowing do you think God knows? Is it so bad to say God has hope, and faith? Is it to hard to think God could actually make rules that he can always know 100% something would happen (like 2+2=4 You+Jesus=Saved Forever)?

Is it so hard to imagine that He has made creation to eventually work out for the best for us in Christ, and that part of the future REALLY is settled and known to him? Yet he left the future open for us to decide if we will apply ourselves to the equation You+Jesus=Saved Forever.

If it is as you say, God has intentionally decided Lon+Jesus=SAVED and Real Sorcerer-Jesus=Hell. And for RS, if you are right, God did not show much love for him at all. Jesus did not truly die for him because from eternity's past RS wasn't in God's master plan to be saved. I morn for RS, because he might have wanted to seek after God had he had a true will. Now, if you are right, he has no choice but to except his fate and just die and go to hell, because that decision cannot be changed.

But if I am right, RS has a chance, he is free, and the future is open, and he can make his part in eternity as he would like! God has the equation _____________+Jesus=SAVED, and he just needs to fill in the blank. God calls him, and everyone "write your name here," and hopes he will.

Lon, I am truly sorry for the tone that may come across from this post. I do not mean it ill, so don't take offense. But I have tired and tried to answer this for you.

So after all that, God has settled some parts of the future, and God knows some parts of the future. When it comes to freewill agents, we have our tendencies that God can use to foresee our future. Nineveh's tendency was sin. God has predictions for us all, like Nineveh, but we can change the outcome of that prediction when we allow the potter to mold us into a vessel of glory.

We also have decisions we have made. Some people have choose, for example, drugs to be a part of their life. God can predict that they will continue to do drugs if their mind is made up to keep doing so. If he makes the call, and if the call comes to be, he knew!

 

[lee_merrill]

So Why can't God know the future the same way? Why can't God do what Jonah did?

Well, Jonah did not know for certain, but God does.

Hosea 5:9 Ephraim will be laid waste on the day of reckoning. Among the tribes of Israel I proclaim what is certain.

Nineveh was overthrown, you know, but by repentance instead of judgment.

 

[godrulz]

No. But couldn't it be said that complete present knowledge would yield complete proximal foreknowledge?

Also, you avoid the idea that God is present in all times simultaneously.

It does not follow that present knowledge would lead to exhaustive, proximal foreknowledge. God will know who is in the playoffs for the Superbowl and what teams make it to the Superbowl. That still does not mean He knows every detail of the game in advance or even the outcome before kickoff (unless he is controlling the players to ensure a specific outcome, which is nonsense).

I am not avoiding your 'eternal now' simultaneity and have many posts establishing endless time, not timelessness. God is not present in all times simultaneously. This is totally incoherent and contrary to Scripture and sound logic. Time is not a place nor a thing. It is unidirectional. The future is not yet and one cannot 'be there' in advance. This is science, not science fiction class.

 

[patman]

Well, Jonah did not know for certain, but God does.

Hosea 5:9 Ephraim will be laid waste on the day of reckoning. Among the tribes of Israel I proclaim what is certain.

Nineveh was overthrown, you know, but by repentance instead of judgment.

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Apparently God was going to bring disaster upon them.... this verse clearly states God said he would do it, but now he won't.

In light of this scripture, will you continue to use your watered down answer?

 

[Lon]

And since I just mentioned the kitchen table scenario to Lee, I'll mention it again. I recall your answer was along the lines of "We're talking passed each other. God has EDF." which doesn't show how the kitchen table scenario was or was not a contradiction. But, hey, if you don't want to answer that's okay. I didn't press it then, either.

No, my answer was that God can know and it doesn't make your choice any different. You are misconstruing this because of how you view foreordination, sovereignty, and predestination.

Go back and revisit with me what I said: If I get an almanac from the future, I'd know every major event that happens this year. I would know if it rains today. HOWEVER, I have nothing at all to do with any of it actually happening. EDF does not remove choice.

Lee has been keeping his question as muddled as possible so no one can understand what he's asking. He does this so no one can answer directly and he can declare victory without ever having been in the fight.

(He's making a clear strong stance of it above)

I'm afraid this is just as clear as what Lee is saying. You put "knows" in quotes. What is that supposed to mean? You state "it isn't predictability" based on what? There are no qualifying statements to establish that.

From Lee's quote: "...a remnant will be saved..?"

Your answer clearly is "He doesn't." Thats the answer Lee is looking for. God doesn't 'know." "He is very smart." I.E. He predicts rather well but He doesn't know.

I know you are trying to make things clear... but this just isn't clear.

Then how did you answer? You are confusing yourself. It was clear.

As sure as any of God's prophecies. Isn't that obvious?

Yes. God isn't 'sure' in OV. He predicts with almost certainty because "He is very smart."

Of course, isn't that His goal?

Er...no. That is why He says only a remnant. The logic leads to rejection or a Calvinistic understanding.

Because He set it up that way, and He's very smart.

Thanks, I wanted to make sure you recognize I've not misquoted you here.

Don't you know enough about the OV to know the answers to these questions? If you were really interested in the discussion between the views, you would know this by now. This is a good indication that you aren't interested in following the evidence where it leads, but rather you are interested in upholding your own pride.

It was a rhetorical question. The point is that EDF hasn't been misproven here and prophecy points to God's knowledge. The fundamental issue was addressed by Clete several pages ago. Scroll down to "Let me try again." He explains the dilemma rather well.

God didn't want two, and He's very smart. BUT, if there *were* two, how could that have made a difference? If Judas, instead of greeting Jesus with a kiss, had come and repented it still wouldn't have mattered! God is interested in what He needs to do to express His love for us, not putting handcuffs on Himself so He is obligated to do unloving things toward us.

The handcuffs is a misunderstanding/mischaraterization. If there were two set to betray Christ, prophecy would have reflected the idea. If none, same thing. It is more than prediction. By God's own standard, His prophecy must come about.
This can only mean God knows or He determines, even against what a man chooses and decides for himself. It is an either or scenario. In order for God's standard for prophecy to be upheld, it MUST come about.

Because Pharoah was like a trained dog.

Yeah, but why the tenth plague? God couldn't know when Pharoah would have broken by OV definition. He couldn't have told Moses that Pharoah would have caved after 10. I am arguing God has the ability to 'know' men's future perfectly (and ultimately arguing for EDF). Lee's question is all about this premise. Here is another question: Why do it? Why say what you 'think' will happen if you could be wrong? God doesn't need to predict 'outloud.' In scripture, God throws around prophetic statements like they are just part of his nature and thoughts. He never seems to 'think better' of the guess (if OV were correct).
There is a natural rendering of EDF in scripture. I've grossly oversimplified but I believe you can see the point here.

Again, what are you talking about? What does "bend the will" mean? Can *I* bend someone's will?

This can only mean God knows or He determines, even against what a man chooses and decides for himself. It is an either or scenario. In order for God's standard for prophecy to be upheld, it MUST come about.

OV cannot rest on simply "God being very smart" when the test of prophecy is given in no uncertain terms. It must come about.

I can do these things. I could pursuade someone to name their child a certain name, I could blind someone. Why do you make this huge leap from things we could all do to things that define God's exhaustive foreknowledge? It just doesn't follow.

I don't think you can. In Luke 1:11-20, the angel Gabriel tells Zacharias he will have a son and to name him John. Zacharias doesn't believe him and is struck dumb until the moment he names John against the others trying to name him. God completely intervenes in this naming.

If we wanted to prove it, we'd have to get into philosophy, and we already know you wouldn't want to do that. We could do it with biblical authority, too, but you've already decided what you want the bible to say.

What I want scripture to say is irrelevant. What it actually says is what is important here.
Think of it in these terms: All of Christiandom has believed that God has EDF based on scriptural teachings. It is audacious to think that "I" out of all believers suddenly have more knowledge and reasoning than the rest of Christiandom. If I have a counter view, I'd better be VERY sure and I'd better be able to prove beyond doubt my assertation. OV has yet to do this and I see it as impertinent.

 

[Lon]

Lon,


So in a 400 page post, page 50 for you is page 350 for me, and this changes as the thread grows in size... When you link to a page, I don't see what you wanted me to see, plus I have to read around to get the point.

When I link, I use the actual post itself, and I usually take the part from the quote I want others to see, then they can follow the link as a reference.
:thumb:

Moving on

Interesting, and thanks for that correction! Will do sir!

My cards have always been on the table. I have hidden nothing, and risked my pride to show everything I believe. I do not know how to make it any clearer.

I just find that starting in the same place with all new comers tends to put them at a disadvantage. One really has to have points clarified and I simply wanted to get to the meat and potatoes of that discussion for Pariah.

So I will try something I never do on here, I will use your words against you. Sorry.

Naw, don't be sorry as to what you were seeing. I'll clarify (or at least try very hard to) in a moment here.

You asked, "How is it that Jonah could[know Nineveh's actions] and God could not?"

Good question. So you are now saying that Jonah knows the entire future(sorry)? If Jonah could tell that Nineveh would be spared, even in the face of God telling him, "No, they will be destroyed in 40 days," if you use your reasoning, Jonah must have exhaustive foreknowledge.

And here is the clarification: It isn't that Jonah 'knows' but he has a strong inkling and I believe is the very reason he ran in the first place. I use Jonah simply to say if Jonah can guess, God certainly knows better than Jonah. I'm saying if it was obvious to Jonah, it was exponentially knowable by God, even by OV standards.

Jonah knew that it would happen. How else could he know besides 100% foreknowledge? Even in spite of thousands of human freewill actions and he got the future right! It must be a miracle. It can only be foreknowledge in perfect form.

Unless of course, Jonah knew as his prophetic office enabled (and there would be strong indication here he did).

.........................

Sorry. Again.

But don't you see? Just replace "Jonah" with "God" and you have the basic S.V. argument. But it doesn't work when I put Jonah in there. It is a faulty argument. Saying A foresaw B, A does not know the entire future.

Again, I can use the word know against you.

Your entire quote said, "In Jonah 4, Jonah certainly foresaw. How is it that Jonah could and God could not?"

The verse in Jonah 4 is:
Jonah 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.."

Jonah knew God would relent. Before it happened, he knew it! So how is it Jonah knows the future, Lon? Tell me, how did Jonah know? You say he guessed? But he was right, so did he "know" know or did he sorta "know"? How does Jonah know the future?

He's a prophet. The mark of a prophet is what? He knows, but he doesn't have EDF (we don't have many if any real prophets today).

How do you know that Jonah knew? Were you there? How do you know there is a God? Did you see him? Did you have a nice conversation with him? Did he show you his face? Did he show you a sign when you saw him? Or do you know in a different way?

How do you know the bible is true? Evidence? How do you know it is solid evidence? Did you see creation happen? Were you there for the exodus? Did you see Jesus turn water into wine, or pour out his blood like a fine drink and offer it to the 12? Were you there when your evidence was developed in history so you can be so certain that it is right?

Just for argument's sake, "I don't." How does this touch EDF for God?

No, I don't want you to answer these questions. Don't, actually. Because you weren't there. You have not had a 2 way conversation over a cup of tea with God, you go on everything you KnoW by faith. You know by faith! Even your evidence... faith. Yes, faith. So do you REALLLY know?

Let's argue for a moment for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Did Jonah REALLLY know? Well he was right, and so are you. So what you know by faith, guess what? You know it, because to know something it must be true.

Agreed, see my qualifier as to Jonah's prophet status.

I know 2+2=4. You knew that. When I was in kindergarden, my teacher gave the class M&M's. She made us split them up into numbers. I had 2 M&Ms in this cup, and 2 M&M's in the other cup. When I poured the one cup into another, I had 4 in the same cup.

Good teacher

Now, because I saw that happen, I will forever know that if I have 2 of anything and add 2 more of the same thing, I get 4.

So there are at least two kinds of "knowing something." One takes faith, one takes principal. I can accurately predict that 2+2 will =4, and always be right, because that is how it is.

I don't agree. One is absolute, the other is predictive and nothing more. I believe the work of the Holy Spirit to be absolute conviction of truth. Faith knowledge is about trusting the one who is true. This could get confusing in a hurry, but let me say that we don't always know 'how' the answer God gives us is true, but we do know for certain it is true. I'd contend that there is a second kind of knowledge, and that knowledge is faith based on what God tells us. For instance, I know without doubt He is coming back, because He told us so. It is foreknowledge, it is just not exhaustive and it is also not knowledge that proceeds from any mechanism on my own part. I have no capability to know any future happening for certainty other than what God has told us.

I can also accurately predict that God is God because of faith. Even thought I never touched his face with my hand and felt his feet as I bow to the ground in prayer. What I know in faith, I know.

So Why can't God know the future the same way? Why can't God do what Jonah did?

Here is what messes with you.... could Jonah have been wrong? Is it to far fetched to say that Nineveh wouldn't listen? Could they have shrugged him off and went on in their sins?

Is Nineveh much better than Jerusalem? When Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem, God warned and warned, prophet after prophet, and they didn't listen. God finally had to punish them. Now knowing that, could Nineveh potentially closed their ears to God? Yes, but as it happened, they didn't. Jonah could have been wrong!

Prophet. If he stated he knew, he knew.

So sometimes, you take a chance, knowing something by faith. You could be right, you could be wrong. But when you were right, you take credit for knowing it before it happened, don't you?

No, I take credit for a good guess. I don't know until it proves itself. Again, this is not an option for a prophet. He sees differently than you and I. You must acknowledge this, his life depended on it.

My neighbor has a dog he trained to shake hands. He knew that if he held out his hand, his dog would shake his hand. He did it many times before. And when he said, "Watch him shake my hand," and held out his hand, the dog just looked at him with his tongue hanging out of his mouth.

So even though he said "watch this happen" and it didn't happen, he thought he knew he would, but it turned out he didn't know. But had he actually shook his hand, he truly did know.

So, which way of knowing do you think God knows? Is it so bad to say God has hope, and faith? Is it to hard to think God could actually make rules that he can always know 100% something would happen (like 2+2=4 You+Jesus=Saved Forever)?

Is it so hard to imagine that He has made creation to eventually work out for the best for us in Christ, and that part of the future REALLY is settled and known to him? Yet he left the future open for us to decide if we will apply ourselves to the equation You+Jesus=Saved Forever.

As I told Yorz, if God makes an unconditional statement about the future, it must come to pass.

If it is as you say, God has intentionally decided Lon+Jesus=SAVED and Real Sorcerer-Jesus=Hell. And for RS, if you are right, God did not show much love for him at all. Jesus did not truly die for him because from eternity's past RS wasn't in God's master plan to be saved. I morn for RS, because he might have wanted to seek after God had he had a true will. Now, if you are right, he has no choice but to except his fate and just die and go to hell, because that decision cannot be changed.

But if I am right, RS has a chance, he is free, and the future is open, and he can make his part in eternity as he would like! God has the equation _____________+Jesus=SAVED, and he just needs to fill in the blank. God calls him, and everyone "write your name here," and hopes he will.

This is the classic Arminian/Calvinist discussion.

Lon, I am truly sorry for the tone that may come across from this post. I do not mean it ill, so don't take offense. But I have tired and tried to answer this for you.

No, I don't take it that way. I don't think at this point in our debates I could take you as harsh or offensive purposefully.

So after all that, God has settled some parts of the future, and God knows some parts of the future. When it comes to freewill agents, we have our tendencies that God can use to foresee our future. Nineveh's tendency was sin. God has predictions for us all, like Nineveh, but we can change the outcome of that prediction when we allow the potter to mold us into a vessel of glory.

Again, I ask you to reflect on the condition of prophecy from Deuteronomy 13 and 18. If a prophecy (unconditional) is made, it must come about. "Peter, you will deny me three times." "His name will be Josiah, and he will destroy the Priests of Baal."

We also have decisions we have made. Some people have choose, for example, drugs to be a part of their life. God can predict that they will continue to do drugs if their mind is made up to keep doing so. If he makes the call, and if the call comes to be, he knew!

I disagree. If it isn't absolute knowledge, it is no knowledge at all. We are warned of making statements that are not positively true as knowns.

 

[RobE]

It does not follow that present knowledge would lead to exhaustive, proximal foreknowledge. God will know who is in the playoffs for the Superbowl and what teams make it to the Superbowl. That still does not mean He knows every detail of the game in advance or even the outcome before kickoff (unless he is controlling the players to ensure a specific outcome, which is nonsense).

Do the scriptures point to God knowing our 'minds' or thoughts?
Do the scriptures point to God knowing our 'desires' or wills?

1 John 3:20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.​

I found this scripture interesting because the words 'hearts' and 'minds' had the same meaning in ancient times.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.​

I'll restate my question: Would complete present knowledge(which includes thoughts and desires) yield exhaustive, proximal foreknowledge?

 

[patman]

Do you sleep man?

Let's look at your answers where you "disagree."

I don't agree. One is absolute, the other is predictive and nothing more. I believe the work of the Holy Spirit to be absolute conviction of truth. Faith knowledge is about trusting the one who is true. This could get confusing in a hurry, but let me say that we don't always know 'how' the answer God gives us is true, but we do know for certain it is true. I'd contend that there is a second kind of knowledge, and that knowledge is faith based on what God tells us. For instance, I know without doubt He is coming back, because He told us so. It is foreknowledge, it is just not exhaustive and it is also not knowledge that proceeds from any mechanism on my own part. I have no capability to know any future happening for certainty other than what God has told us.

Why Is it I agree totally with this, but you disagreed when I said it? However, this one thing you are not seeing.....

If it isn't absolute knowledge, it is no knowledge at all. We are warned of making statements that are not positively true as knowns.

Knowledge is:

knowledge |ˈnälij|
noun
1 facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject : a thirst for knowledge | her considerable knowledge of antiques.
• what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information : the transmission of knowledge.
• Philosophy true, justified belief; certain understanding, as opposed to opinion.
2 awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation : the program had been developed without his knowledge | he denied all knowledge of the overnight incidents

I think it is clear. Even if Jonah didn't know by perception (2+2=4) that Nineveh would turn, he did know by speculation(faith).

I agree, one kind of knowledge is more certain than the other, but what MAKES it knowledge is that what you thought was actually true. See 1. for this...."facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education;"

It is very clear.

Lon, you are asserting that God can only have perceptual (2+2) knowledge and not deductive(faith)? Why do you see knowledge as you do, but the real definition is more like I am saying?

know |nō|
verb ( past knew |noō|; past part. known |nōn|)
1 [with clause ] be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information : most people know that CFCs can damage the ozone layer | I know what I'm doing.
• [ trans. ] have knowledge or information concerning : I would write to him if I knew his address [ intrans. ] | I know of one local who shot himself.
• be absolutely certain or sure about something : I just knew it was something I wanted to do [ trans. ] | I knew it!
2 [ trans. ] have developed a relationship with (someone) through meeting and spending time with them; be familiar or friendly with : he knew and respected Laura.
• have a good command of (a subject or language).
• recognize (someone or something) : Isabel couldn't hear the words clearly, but she knew the voice.
• be familiar or acquainted with (something) : a little restaurant she knew near Times Square.
• have personal experience of (an emotion or situation) : a man who had known better times.
• (usu. be known as) regard or perceive as having a specified characteristic : he is also known as an amateur painter.
• (usu. be known as) give (someone or something) a particular name or title : the doctor was universally known as “Hubert.”
• ( know someone/something from) be able to distinguish one person or thing from (another) : you are convinced you know your own baby from any other in the world.
3 [ trans. ] archaic have sexual intercourse with (someone). [ORIGIN: a Hebraism that has passed into modern languages; compare with German erkennen, French connaître.].

Why do you assert that knowledge can only be your preference when knowledge can be both? Because you want God to have this knowledge.

 

[themuzicman]

Maybe he means "know" in the biblical sense?

 

[RobE]

Knowledge is:

knowledge |ˈnälij|
noun
1 facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject : a thirst for knowledge | her considerable knowledge of antiques.
• what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information : the transmission of knowledge.
• Philosophy true, justified belief; certain understanding, as opposed to opinion.

Does God have complete present and past knowledge according to the o.v.? Aren't you, and Clete, currently arguing that it's God's opinion instead of God's knowledge about the future?

2 awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation : the program had been developed without his knowledge | he denied all knowledge of the overnight incidents

If God lives outside of time would He know through experience?

know |nō|
verb ( past knew |noō|; past part. known |nōn|)
1 [with clause ] be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information : most people know that CFCs can damage the ozone layer | I know what I'm doing.
• [ trans. ] have knowledge or information concerning : I would write to him if I knew his address [ intrans. ] | I know of one local who shot himself.
• be absolutely certain or sure about something : I just knew it was something I wanted to do [ trans. ] | I knew it!

2 [ trans. ] have developed a relationship with (someone) through meeting and spending time with them; be familiar or friendly with : he knew and respected Laura.

Omnipresence?

I think it is clear. Even if Jonah didn't know by perception (2+2=4) that Nineveh would turn, he did know by speculation(faith).

You mean 'speculation' as in 'opinion' which is in direct contradiction to the definition of knowledge which you just presented.

I agree, one kind of knowledge is more certain than the other, but what MAKES it knowledge is that what you thought was actually true. See 1. for this...."facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education;"

There's only one 'kind' of knowledge, otherwise it's speculation or opinion. Read the definitions above for clarity, Patrick.

It is very clear.

Yes it is.

Lon, you are asserting that God can only have perceptual (2+2) knowledge and not deductive(faith)? Why do you see knowledge as you do, but the real definition is more like I am saying?

No. Deductive reasoning produces certain knowledge just as perception produces certain knowledge. You, and Clete, are the ones presenting the idea that deductive reasoning produces opinion, speculation, and belief(since I'm assuming this is what you believe the definition of faith is).

I know you wrote this post to Lon, but it was screaming to be addressed. Your provided definition is in complete contradiction to your stated belief of what it says. Read it again and please, I beg you, highlight and present the parts of the definition which agrees with your position. I am truly unable to find it.

Rob

Why do you assert that knowledge can only be your preference when knowledge can be both? Because you want God to have this knowledge.

Because it's the definition of 'knowledge' and not both.

 

[RobE]

Maybe he means "know" in the biblical sense?

This isn't funny.

 

[Lon]

Ignoring Muz for the moment....

Do you sleep man?

Yes, 4 hours tonight

Let's look at your answers where you "disagree."

I'll make the disagreement clear in a moment. Muz

Why Is it I agree totally with this, but you disagreed when I said it? However, this one thing you are not seeing.....



Knowledge is:

knowledge |ˈnälij|
noun
1 facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject : a thirst for knowledge | her considerable knowledge of antiques.
• what is known in a particular field or in total; facts and information : the transmission of knowledge.
• Philosophy true, justified belief; certain understanding, as opposed to opinion.
2 awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation : the program had been developed without his knowledge | he denied all knowledge of the overnight incidents

I think it is clear. Even if Jonah didn't know by perception (2+2=4) that Nineveh would turn, he did know by speculation(faith).

Speculation isn't exactly what I think of about 'knowing' something. If you agree with me, you'd concede it was divine prophetic office rather than speculation.

I agree, one kind of knowledge is more certain than the other, but what MAKES it knowledge is that what you thought was actually true. See 1. for this...."facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education;"

It is very clear.

Lon, you are asserting that God can only have perceptual (2+2) knowledge and not deductive(faith)? Why do you see knowledge as you do, but the real definition is more like I am saying?

Because language is often construed. Look at how know was originally defined from Webster's Exhaustive:

Know
KNOW, v.t. no. pret. knew; pp. known. [L. nosco, cognosco, Gr. although much varied in orthography. Nosco makes novi, which, with g or c prefixed, gnovi or cnovi, would coincide with know, knew. So L. cresco, crevi, coincides with grow, grew. The radical sense of knowing is generally to take, receive, or hold.]

1. To perceive with certainty; to understand clearly; to have a clear and certain perception of truth, fact, or any thing that actually exists. To know a thing pre

includes all doubt or uncertainty of its existence. We know what we see with our eyes, or perceive by other senses. We know that fire and water are different substances. We know that truth and falsehood express ideas incompatible with each other. We know that a circle is not a square. We do not know the truth of reports, nor can we always know what to believe.

2. To be informed of; to be taught. It is not unusual for us to say we know things from information, when we rely on the veracity of the informer.

3. To distinguish; as, to know one man from another. We know a fixed star from a planet by its twinkling.

4. To recognize by recollection, remembrance, representation or description. We do not always know a person after a long absence. We sometimes know a man by having seen his portrait, or having heard him described.

5. To be no stranger to; to be familiar. This man is well known to us.

6. In scripture, to have sexual commerce with. Gen 4. (Muz)

7. To approve.

The Lord knoweth the way of the righteous. Psa 1.

8. To learn. Prov 1.

9. To acknowledge with due respect. 1 Th 5.

10. To choose; to favor or take an interest in. Amos 3.

11. To commit; to have.

He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin. 2Cor.

12. To have full assurance of; to have satisfactory evidence of any thing, though short of certainty.

KNOW, v.i. no.

1. To have clear and certain perception; not to be doubtful; sometimes with of.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. John 7.

2. To be informed.

Sir John must not know of it.

3. To take cognizance of; to examine.

Know of your youth - examine well your blood.

Note that it does not allow your kind of pseudo-knowledge. Our language is as postmodern as theology unfortunately.

know |nō|
verb ( past knew |noō|; past part. known |nōn|)
1 [with clause ] be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information : most people know that CFCs can damage the ozone layer | I know what I'm doing.
• [ trans. ] have knowledge or information concerning : I would write to him if I knew his address [ intrans. ] | I know of one local who shot himself.
• be absolutely certain or sure about something : I just knew it was something I wanted to do [ trans. ] | I knew it!
2 [ trans. ] have developed a relationship with (someone) through meeting and spending time with them; be familiar or friendly with : he knew and respected Laura.
• have a good command of (a subject or language).
• recognize (someone or something) : Isabel couldn't hear the words clearly, but she knew the voice.
• be familiar or acquainted with (something) : a little restaurant she knew near Times Square.
• have personal experience of (an emotion or situation) : a man who had known better times.
• (usu. be known as) regard or perceive as having a specified characteristic : he is also known as an amateur painter.
• (usu. be known as) give (someone or something) a particular name or title : the doctor was universally known as “Hubert.”
• ( know someone/something from) be able to distinguish one person or thing from (another) : you are convinced you know your own baby from any other in the world.
3 [ trans. ] archaic have sexual intercourse with (someone). [ORIGIN: a Hebraism that has passed into modern languages; compare with German erkennen, French connaître.]

Why do you assert that knowledge can only be your preference when knowledge can be both? Because you want God to have this knowledge.

Because the biblical definition is on par with Webster's definition. Of course culture has played havoc with 'knowledge" but culture doesn't get to define Biblical Words.
Webster used the Bible for much of his definitions and compilations.

 

[lee_merrill]

Jonah 3:10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Apparently God was going to bring disaster upon them.... this verse clearly states God said he would do it, but now he won't.

Well, that's words in the English, the Hebrew reads, if this is translated more literally, "God relented over the evil that he had said to do to them, and he did it not.

So God did not say he would definitely destroy them, evil was implied if they did not repent! but they did repent, and this was their overthrow, this word ("haphak") is used both of judgment, and of change in human hearts.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[lee_merrill]

It seems this went unaddressed, if God says "This will certainly happen," and it doesn't, then that's false prophecy, so his prophecies saying "this is sure," must be sure indeed.

Also, if God says "I tell you the truth" to Peter when he knows it might not be true, that is telling a lie.

So prophecy when it's unconditional, cannot be an estimate.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken.

Sadly enough, the Open View directly contradicts this Scripture.

 

[patman]

Well, that's words in the English, the Hebrew reads, if this is translated more literally, "God relented over the evil that he had said to do to them, and he did it not.

So God did not say he would definitely destroy them, evil was implied if they did not repent! but they did repent, and this was their overthrow, this word ("haphak") is used both of judgment, and of change in human hearts.

Blessings,
Lee

Your translation says the same thing as the one I quoted you...

 

[patman]

Note that it does not allow your kind of pseudo-knowledge. Our language is as postmodern as theology unfortunately.

Because the biblical definition is on par with Webster's definition. Of course culture has played havoc with 'knowledge" but culture doesn't get to define Biblical Words.
Webster used the Bible for much of his definitions and compilations.

Lon, what does the acronym "EDF" mean? I forgot to answer that?

Anyhow, I see no difference in your dictionary's definition and mine.

But I agree that the way we understand the word "know" is not the same way the original language meant it to sound. This is another O.V. point. Our own understanding of such words taints the true meaning, and using this as an example, your understanding of "know" is so strict that you read it according to your theology.

If I haven't said it recently, there is no where in scripture that says "God KNOWs the entire future." And the idea that he does is based on the strict 2+2 definition of the word that you prefer AND upon our own priorly conceived understandings(i.e. those who think that do so because someone else told them it is so).

 

[patman]

Thanks for the discussion. I think God will be the one to answer your question if it has not been answered already. As of now, I shall depart from it. One thing I do know, all answers shall be known in Heaven, and we shall give God the glory still.

Pariah

I agreed with a lot of what you said. I always have agreed with a lot of it. I say Amen to the scriptures. However, I cannot make the giant leap that you do. Some foreknowledge is not the same as total foreknowledge.

Can you show me a verse that simply says, or even a chapter that states, that God foresaw the entire future.

And before you use the "declaring the beginning from the end" and the "alpha and omega" let me point out that these do not say he knows the entire future.

 

[Lon]

Lon, what does the acronym "EDF" mean? I forgot to answer that?

Anyhow, I see no difference in your dictionary's definition and mine.

But I agree that the way we understand the word "know" is not the same way the original language meant it to sound. This is another O.V. point. Our own understanding of such words taints the true meaning, and using this as an example, your understanding of "know" is so strict that you read it according to your theology.

If I haven't said it recently, there is no where in scripture that says "God KNOWs the entire future." And the idea that he does is based on the strict 2+2 definition of the word that you prefer AND upon our own priorly conceived understandings(i.e. those who think that do so because someone else told them it is so).

I have always differentiated knowledge this way. If we know something, it must by definition, be true. Forecasting, guessing, or ballparking are not part of knowledge.

I agree our listed definitons are virtually the same, but I believe Webster paints a much clearer picture with no wiggle-room for anything but what is actual.

You are very correct my understanding of the definition of knowledge is carried into my theology for I believe it is a biblically given concept.

When I say "I know it will rain tomorrow" I'm immediately called to task for proof.

"How do you know?"

"The weatherman said. The crickets aren't chirping. The critters are all skedaddling."

"The weatherman hasn't been right once this year."

"Good point."

"So you are guessing it will rain tomorrow?"

"Yep."

"You are probably right."

EDF (Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge). It means God knows all of the future.