ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Pariah]

Hi patman,

I would rather not make my dreams a part of this topic either. They are meant for me since God has not declared unto me to share it. It's however He would lead me, I guess.

Under settled theology, why doesn't it bother you that God said in 40 days X, yet actually in 40 days Y? That tells me their future defiantly wasn't settled. If he proclaimed X, shouldn't that be what happened, period? Even if God said X to get Y, why isn't this a problem for settled theology? He still said X. Y still happened instead. He foresaw Y happening, still he said X. (Sorry, no one seems to answer this for me)

What about Sodom? No warning.

Does prophecy mean it shall come to pass? Was it not written for Jonah to "preach" to Nineveh thus I wonder if judgment was more like a warning? I mean, if it was judgment, then why warn them? He didn't warn Sodom. He knew they wouldn't repent. But a warning was given to Nineveh. They repented. If it was judgment, then God would have done it without the warning, yes?

Just like the elect. Settled theist like to read that verse as if each and every individual was chosen, yet the elect is a group. And scripture all around it says we should recruit as many people into this group as we can, implying strongly that we as individuals chose as we hear at that moment.

John 6: 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 13: 18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Seems like Judas was foreseen as being evil as well as the betrayer. I don't see that ball with the bean in it regarding him at all. God used him to work in this fallen world to bring about what has been foreseen to come for Judas did not believe in Jesus at all, and he preferred the darkness rather than come to the light. He did not seek God, but was just along for the ride. And in spite of all he had seen, he betrayed Jesus for money. Thus Jesus is God for He had foreseen this event knowing full well it was going to come about. If it didn't, then no one would know that He was the One, right? Thus God is in control, but working in redeeming man that seek Him thus instructions and warnings are given to aide in Him working in our lives for that desired result as foreseen to come about in the elect.

John 15: 15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17These things I command you, that ye love one another.

One could say that the disciples from this point on will not deviate from bearing fruit, but the why the command to love one another? Could the instructions all be a part of forming the clay of what He has foreseen shall come to pass? That it needed to be said regardless of His saying what the outcome shall be, because His saying contributed to that outcome as His Word like God.. shall accomplish what it has set out to do and shall not return void?

Thus by saying the instructions... it has set out in His workings in them to be accomplished in them. His word shall bring it to pass. That is from God's view to us. Judgment as in final is not a warning at all, but it can be, depending on how the term is used from God to us. Only God knows how He was using it.

From our view to Him, we are trusting Him to accomplish His work in us as we heed His sayings and follow Him by faith, because we seek the Lord, and He knows we want to be with Him, thus our hope is on the Lord as God to accomplish what He has spoken.. to having saved us, and helping us to live as His... by faith. To disregard His sayings as those that would be led astray, are those vessels unto dishonor for they seek God, but allow the things of this world to over-ride their relationship with the Lord... thus like the prodigal son and the foolish virgins, God foresaw them as well.

John 10: 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So the Lord knows those that seek Him wholeheartedely mayhap because those that need Him more would seek Him more thus hating sin more and desiring to be with Him more, but only God could know that. Maybe that is why the poor in spirit are blessed?

Hebrews 4: 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

I really believe that the topic in by itself is just a futile attempt to understand the workings of God when we are not perfect yet to understand. How can we? Maybe we can grasp certain aspects of His workings, but terms and application could be different, and we are just not perceiving it. I do know this...

1 Corinthians 13: 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Thanks for the discussion. I think God will be the one to answer your question if it has not been answered already. As of now, I shall depart from it. One thing I do know, all answers shall be known in Heaven, and we shall give God the glory still.

 

[Lon]

Philetus,

Your scripture says nothing of God 'hoping'. Perhaps you have another.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.​

What's the 'frustration' here?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it.​

Paul explains:

25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

23 ..., but we ourselves, ..., groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons,...

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.​

He further qualifies:

24 For in this hope we were saved....

Colossians 1:5 ...the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth​

Paul states that creations purpose is achieved through 'the adoption of the children of God':

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.​

And points that certain knowledge of outcomes eliminates the need for the hope that generates faith:

24...But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.​

So the 'frustration' placed upon creation was the concealed future. God not allowing man to know(see) the future:

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it.

John 20:29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."​

This produces faith in the man and achieves the condition of salvation:

Hebrews 11

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"​

You take a lot of flak for your thoughts. Global thinkers don't always have all their logic holes plugged, but I'll tell you what. Those brilliant people who find answers to complex discussions in math, science, and philosophy are exactly the same way.

I see a light of shining moments in your theology discussions. It is too bad the CS (boring majority) don't get you as often as you deserve.

No particular style is supposed to be better than another for learning and expressing, but I really am a little biased toward global thinkers being one myself. I'd not say we are better than the rest. At least I have a tight reign on my tongue and fingers concerning my thoughts...

I totally agree with your post here. Because you are not concrete sequential in your presentation, it will take the majority at least 20 post to get you or until a concrete sequential man comes up behind you and posts what you've said here in a straightforward proof and takes all the credit.


Keep shinin'

Lon

 

[Lon]

Hmmmm... okay. Just so you know, I do appreciate the leg work you put into that.

Here's the answer: God is very smart.

Here's a more complete answer: God knows this prophecy as much as any other. And He has had prophecies that didn't come to pass. The alternatives would be that everyone would be saved and it wouldn't be a remant but the whole group, or, that none would be saved not even a remanent. The chances are so slim amoung the alternatives that you don't even have to be God to bet on that one. But God is much smarter than we are so He can be more sure of what a possible outcome would be.

BTW, God is working to undo His own prophecy! He'd much rather the whole group be saved and that's what He would be working for.

On another note, it didn't mean you never addressed it a long time ago, it just means you didn't in this particular thread. I've no doubts it was addressed somewhere and is lurking in archival cyber-dust.

 

[Lon]

1 tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, [and] one mediator also between God and men, [the] man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [given] at the proper time.​

John 6:44 "No one is able come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate​

John 12: 31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."​

Clearly God's desire is for all men to be saved, and His actions are intended to provide that opportunity to as many as possible, as Christ's death made a propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

I think there is a clear hope by God, especially in Paul's expression in 1 Tim 2:4, that all men come to Him.

Muz

This didn't escape my attention btw. Rob does bring some important points up. If God hopes in OV, you do have to wrangle this against places where He interacts and 'doesn't' hope for determining and knowing.

For us, EDF would preclude even the possibility. You've brought up some good verses in the ongoing Arminian/Calvin debates. On top of that, you have Supralapsarian Calvinist where you tend to argue most OV/Calvin doctrine and infralapsarian or sublapsarian that has a compatiblist view.

If God hopes, we'd have a hard time saying God has EDF.
Desire and hope are a bit different here. We can desire something to happen but we don't hope against hope for it.

Example: This Christmas season I hear "GrownUp Christmas List" on the radio. It is a wish for peace on earth. We desire peace on earth, but our 'hope' for it is not until Christ returns. We can desire men to put down their arms, but it would be foolish hoping to believe our soldiers will be home tomorrow.

Does God foolishly hope all will be saved? It cannot be good doctrine to believe so. It is equally troubling to see God 'hoping' in the verse Phil mentioned. He absolutely will correct creation's groaning. Hope carries an unsure undercurrent to it's definition. If 'hope' is allowed in your discussion, AMR's continued question about the eschaton become a major point of contention: God 'hopes' He can save you. My brother is a fireman. He works within 3 blocks of my house and is fairly confident he could save my life in just about any scenario. If he has such confidence as a man, I can't imagine God needing to hope as omnipotence precludes it. EDF precludes it. Omniscience precludes it. Omnicompetence precludes it even in OV which is where Rob is hitting in the inconsistency.

 

[themuzicman]

This didn't escape my attention btw. Rob does bring some important points up. If God hopes in OV, you do have to wrangle this against places where He interacts and 'doesn't' hope for determining and knowing.

Such as?

For us, EDF would preclude even the possibility. You've brought up some good verses in the ongoing Arminian/Calvin debates. On top of that, you have Supralapsarian Calvinist where you tend to argue most OV/Calvin doctrine and infralapsarian or sublapsarian that has a compatiblist view.

All the "lapsarians" are just arguing about when God elects individuals. However, when He does so, it's done. Fixed. Over. No hoping.

"Compatiblism" is a logical contradiction, as has been previously shown.

If God hopes, we'd have a hard time saying God has EDF.
Desire and hope are a bit different here. We can desire something to happen but we don't hope against hope for it.

But in EDF, desire is meaningless after creation, especially if you're the creator and cause of it all.

Example: This Christmas season I hear "GrownUp Christmas List" on the radio. It is a wish for peace on earth. We desire peace on earth, but our 'hope' for it is not until Christ returns. We can desire men to put down their arms, but it would be foolish hoping to believe our soldiers will be home tomorrow.

But we do still hope for peace on earth, when Christ comes.

And we do hope for progress in peace on earth, now. Why else do we negotiate peace treaties and engage in diplomacy? So that we can work towards world peace, even if we think it's not going to happen tomorrow.

So, I don't think your analogy works.

Does God foolishly hope all will be saved? It cannot be good doctrine to believe so. It is equally troubling to see God 'hoping' in the verse Phil mentioned. He absolutely will correct creation's groaning. Hope carries an unsure undercurrent to it's definition. If 'hope' is allowed in your discussion, AMR's continued question about the eschaton become a major point of contention: God 'hopes' He can save you. My brother is a fireman. He works within 3 blocks of my house and is fairly confident he could save my life in just about any scenario. If he has such confidence as a man, I can't imagine God needing to hope as omnipotence precludes it. EDF precludes it. Omniscience precludes it. Omnicompetence precludes it even in OV which is where Rob is hitting in the inconsistency.

Omnicompetence only precludes it if we assume that there is no free will. God did not give man omnicompetence. Thus, as we can see, Rob and you are still imposing your presuppositions on those who don't embrace them.

And, just like your peace example, God can hope that all men come to a saving knowledge of Him, knowing that many will not, because God has made a way for all men to come to Him, and God continues to work to bring all men to Himself. The fact that 'all' isn't going to happen doesn't mean God can't hope for all and work for the best possible outcome.

So, I don't think your analogies work that well IRL, since people DO hope for world peace, those outside of the Calvinist movement DO hope for salvation for all people, and that would include God.

Muz

 

[Philetus]

If God hopes, we'd have a hard time saying God has EDF.

Brilliant...........!


Lon, the problem you seem to be having is you want to make a simple statement like 'God hopes' universal ... as if the only thing God can do about the future is hope. God can also act in a most decisive, even cosmic way to accomplish His purposes (i.e. second coming). And even though God doesn't know which individual in particular will repent(or not) before Christ's return, God can hope all will be saved at His coming.

You guys need to get a bigger globe.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

God knows He can save you. God hopes you will let Him.

 

[lee_merrill]

God knows He can save you. God hopes you will let Him.

Chapter and verse, please! Conclusions we need are not necessarily Scripture passages, because of that.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Lon]

Brilliant...........!


Lon, the problem you seem to be having is you want to make a simple statement like 'God hopes' universal ... as if the only thing God can do about the future is hope. God can also act in a most decisive, even cosmic way to accomplish His purposes (i.e. second coming). And even though God doesn't know which individual in particular will repent(or not) before Christ's return, God can hope all will be saved at His coming.

You guys need to get a bigger globe.

Philetus

God knows He can save you. God hopes you will let Him.

Well, I do need to see a verse or two that clearly shows God hoping. At this point, there are a few ramifications for the idea of 'hope' that need fleshed out for the OV stance. You don't want God 'hoping' that He can save us. I think your statement that God is competent is important for the OV stance (EDF kind of has the rest of us ignoring it as an improbable if not impossible scenario-especially given the unknown factor of hoping). It is a well stated point you make for clarifying.

Muz, pay attention to Philetus' posts. He is explaining the ramifications quite well here.

Blessing in Him

Lon

 

[themuzicman]

I think what you're missing, Lon, is that God doesn't just hope that all are saved, but also is active in saving as many as possible.

Philetus has been doing yeoman's work in this regard, having more patience than I.

Muz

 

[RobE]

....., but also is active in saving as many as possible.

Well for a libertarian open theist the amount "as many as possible." would equate to ALL, and no less.

Lon, the problem you seem to be having is you want to make a simple statement like 'God hopes' universal ... as if the only thing God can do about the future is hope. God can also act in a most decisive, even cosmic way to accomplish His purposes (i.e. second coming). And even though God doesn't know which individual in particular will repent(or not) before Christ's return, God can hope all will be saved at His coming.

Why don't you illuminate us on your statement above in regards to Judas Iscariot.

Also, a scripture showing God 'hopes' would be nice.

 

[lee_merrill]

Also, a scripture showing God 'hopes' would be nice.

:TomO:

Lee is also wondering still, how God knows that only a remnant will be saved, and then later, all Israel.

 

[Yorzhik]

God knows this prophecy as much as any other. And He has had prophecies that didn't come to pass.

Thanks, Lon.


So this could be wrong? Surely not...

Romans 9:28 "For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

So this is not a prediction, nor an estimate, but a decree, his sentence on earth.

Isaiah 10:23 The Lord, the Lord Almighty, will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.

Similarly we have God's decision stated later in Romans, with the opposite outcome:

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

This also is sure, when all Israel is saved, "as it is written," the deliverer will come, and he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

How though could this be known, if free decisions are unknowable?

This by the way would be a decisive answer to Muz's claim of predetermined reprobation for the "only a remnant will be saved," unless he says there is predetermined salvation as well, and then he will be a Calvinist indeed.

I can't figure out what you are trying to say. Could you be more clear? The first passage is only tangentially related to what I said, including the comment afterward. The second passage is identical in response to the first along with the commentary. The third passage relates more to the topic, but only asks the same question. I'll give you the same answer.

Might as well do it.

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

This also is sure, when all Israel is saved, "as it is written," the deliverer will come, and he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

How though could this be known, if free decisions are unknowable?

Short answer; God is very smart.

 

[lee_merrill]

Lee: This also is sure, [all Israel saved] "as it is written," the deliverer will come, and he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

How though could this be known, if free decisions are unknowable?

Yorzik: Short answer; God is very smart.

So then free decisions are knowable! I agree that indeed free decisions can be known. And if such decisions as the Open View considers most free are knowable, why not then all free decisions? May I be the first to welcome you to the view of a known future ...

The View is indeed quite open, however not perhaps in the sense the Open Theists would have it.

Hebrews 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account.

And the future is open in this sense too.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[godrulz]

Knowing some proximal things as a high probability in advance does not prove exhaustive definite foreknowledge of all remote, non-existent contingencies.

One has a better chance of predicting the outcome of the 2007-2008 Superbowl in a few weeks than one would have 2 million years ago. There is now pertinent past and present knowledge to narrow things down, unlike in eternity past.

Even predicting the outcome part way through the game does not mean exhaustive foreknowledge of every move, sneeze, thought, play, crowd washroom use or oral intake, picking noses, spraining ankles, etc. Contingent events may or may not come to pass and are correctly known as possible until they become actual.

 

[Lon]

Knowing some proximal things as a high probability in advance does not prove exhaustive definite foreknowledge of all remote, non-existent contingencies.

One has a better chance of predicting the outcome of the 2007-2008 Superbowl in a few weeks than one would have 2 million years ago. There is now pertinent past and present knowledge to narrow things down, unlike in eternity past.

Even predicting the outcome part way through the game does not mean exhaustive foreknowledge of every move, sneeze, thought, play, crowd washroom use or oral intake, picking noses, spraining ankles, etc. Contingent events may or may not come to pass and are correctly known as possible until they become actual.

Prove it. Prove God does not have EDF. You state it so matter-o-factly but I've not seen any proof at all. Show without doubt God does not know all future.

Lee has been asking for this in other ways, but no less uncertain terms. Take Lee's remnant question. I'll spell it out plainly: If God 'knows' a remnant will be saved, it isn't predictability. You can ball park a figure and be proved wrong because you cannot know the outcome. How certain is it that a remnant will be saved? Why does Jesus say that few will find the narrow road? What if by His efforts, all Israel would've turned? How could God know one of twelve would betray him? Why not two? Or none? How could God know that Pharoah would hold out until the tenth plague? In OV, God must bend the will of some to His own determination (like Pharoah). It is really odd to see OV taking a hypercalvinist stance if only for a few instances when you so vehemently deny Calvinist doctrine. We do see these instances of God coercing His will. Zech naming John the Baptist, Paul struck blind, etc. I hope you are a little uncomfortable and squirming here. If God does not have EDF, prove it. It seems a major doctrinal point upon a whim if you cannot.

 

[Yorzhik]

So then free decisions are knowable! I agree that indeed free decisions can be known. And if such decisions as the Open View considers most free are knowable, why not then all free decisions? May I be the first to welcome you to the view of a known future ...

The View is indeed quite open, however not perhaps in the sense the Open Theists would have it.

Hebrews 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account.

And the future is open in this sense too.

Blessings,
Lee

Eh, you should have waited for the longer answer. God was still very smart when the prophecy in Nineveh didn't come to pass.

I'm not providing the longer answer now because, as I stated, you need to clarify what you are asking. Could you go back to that post and re-read and answer?

Also, so far, the best answer I've gotten for the kitchen table scenario has been "that's philosophy, we Settled View'ers won't answer that."

The kitchen table scenario would answer your question. I don't think you answered it. Maybe you did. If you did, could you give me the nutshell of your answer or provide a link where you answered?

 

[lee_merrill]

God was still very smart when the prophecy in Nineveh didn't come to pass.

It did, though, Nineveh was overthrown, but by repentance, instead of by destruction--the same word (overthrown) is used elsewhere of a change of heart.

I'm not providing the longer answer now because, as I stated, you need to clarify what you are asking. Could you go back to that post and re-read and answer?

Well, either God knows only a remnant will be saved, or he doesn't. This is his sentence, so we can't be saying it's an estimate, or that he is "Knowing some proximal things as a high probability in advance" (Godrulz). So if God is not pretending he knows, why then, he knows only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel, and these involve free decisions, according to the Open View.

The kitchen table scenario would answer your question.

I'm not sure how this applies to God knowing all Israel will be saved, though, could you expand on this?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Yorzhik]

Prove it. Prove God does not have EDF. You state it so matter-o-factly but I've not seen any proof at all. Show without doubt God does not know all future.

And since I just mentioned the kitchen table scenario to Lee, I'll mention it again. I recall your answer was along the lines of "We're talking passed each other. God has EDF." which doesn't show how the kitchen table scenario was or was not a contradiction. But, hey, if you don't want to answer that's okay. I didn't press it then, either.

Lee has been asking for this in other ways, but no less uncertain terms.

Lee has been keeping his question as muddled as possible so no one can understand what he's asking. He does this so no one can answer directly and he can declare vicotory without ever having been in the fight.

Take Lee's remnant question.

I'd love to, but he doesn't let us know what the question is clearly.

I'll spell it out plainly:

THANK YOU!

If God 'knows' a remnant will be saved, it isn't predictability.

I'm afraid this is just as clear as what Lee is saying. You put "knows" in quotes. What is that supposed to mean? You state "it isn't predictability" based on what? There are no qualifying statements to establish that.

You can ball park a figure and be proved wrong because you cannot know the outcome.

I know you are trying to make things clear... but this just isn't clear.

How certain is it that a remnant will be saved? Why does Jesus say that few will find the narrow road?

As sure as any of God's prophecies. Isn't that obvious?

What if by His efforts, all Israel would've turned?

Of course, isn't that His goal?

How could God know one of twelve would betray him?

Because He set it up that way, and He's very smart.

Why not two? Or none?

Don't you know enough about the OV to know the answers to these questions? If you were really interested in the discussion between the views, you would know this by now. This is a good indication that you aren't interested in following the evidence where it leads, but rather you are interested in upholding your own pride.

God didn't want two, and He's very smart. BUT, if there *were* two, how could that have made a difference? If Judas, instead of greeting Jesus with a kiss, had come and repented it still wouldn't have mattered! God is interested in what He needs to do to express His love for us, not putting handcuffs on Himself so He is obligated to do unloving things toward us.

How could God know that Pharoah would hold out until the tenth plague?

Because Pharoah was like a trained dog.

In OV, God must bend the will of some to His own determination (like Pharoah).

Again, what are you talking about? What does "bend the will" mean? Can *I* bend someone's will?

It is really odd to see OV taking a hypercalvinist stance if only for a few instances when you so vehemently deny Calvinist doctrine. We do see these instances of God coercing His will. Zech naming John the Baptist, Paul struck blind, etc.

I can do these things. I could pursuade someone to name their child a certain name, I could blind someone. Why do you make this huge leap from things we could all do to things that define God's exhaustive foreknowledge? It just doesn't follow.

I hope you are a little uncomfortable and squirming here. If God does not have EDF, prove it. It seems a major doctrinal point upon a whim if you cannot.

If we wanted to prove it, we'd have to get into philosophy, and we already know you wouldn't want to do that. We could do it with biblical authority, too, but you've already decided what you want the bible to say.

 

[RobE]

Knowing some proximal things as a high probability in advance does not prove exhaustive definite foreknowledge of all remote, non-existent contingencies.

No. But couldn't it be said that complete present knowledge would yield complete proximal foreknowledge?

Also, you avoid the idea that God is present in all times simultaneously.