ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Lon]

The 'rub' only referred to the difference between our positions.
‘Yup, yup, yup.’ Thanks for your generosity.



Actually I didn't say I was a 'global thinker', I said even global stinkers disagree.
I would rather be labeled as a ‘glocal’ thinker.

As I said, you have your moments.

The 'yups' because you rightly identify in both paragraphs in the closing sentence of each. Your assessment as to the dilemma topic was correct.

I'll take that as humor and sarcasm. This nation is in enough trouble. "I'll neither seek nor accept ....." LBJ

Funny!

God does hope. And no, I'm not sure where you were going with that, I simply recognized where you were staying ... 'God is hopeless.'

Philetus

Leave it to you to grab a colloquial term that is fully loaded. I imagine seeing it on sigs and absurd thread starters in the near future. For the record, that phrase means "We have not hope in or for God." You knew that, and yet, off you go. Have fun.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hmmmm... okay. Just so you know, I do appreciate the leg work you put into that.

Thanks, Lon.

God knows this prophecy as much as any other. And He has had prophecies that didn't come to pass.

So this could be wrong? Surely not...

Romans 9:28 "For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

So this is not a prediction, nor an estimate, but a decree, his sentence on earth.

Isaiah 10:23 The Lord, the Lord Almighty, will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.

Similarly we have God's decision stated later in Romans, with the opposite outcome:

Romans 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

This also is sure, when all Israel is saved, "as it is written," the deliverer will come, and he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

How though could this be known, if free decisions are unknowable?

This by the way would be a decisive answer to Muz's claim of predetermined reprobation for the "only a remnant will be saved," unless he says there is predetermined salvation as well, and then he will be a Calvinist indeed.

 

[Lon]

Hmmmm... okay. Just so you know, I do appreciate the leg work you put into that.

Here's the answer: God is very smart.

Here's a more complete answer: God knows this prophecy as much as any other. And He has had prophecies that didn't come to pass. The alternatives would be that everyone would be saved and it wouldn't be a remant but the whole group, or, that none would be saved not even a remanent. The chances are so slim amoung the alternatives that you don't even have to be God to bet on that one. But God is much smarter than we are so He can be more sure of what a possible outcome would be.

BTW, God is working to undo His own prophecy! He'd much rather the whole group be saved and that's what He would be working for.

Well, I wanted to know after that, but don't give me too much credit. All I did was did a search and then just punched them up fairly quickly in comparision to yours, but my pleasure.

I thought it would be a good discussion if it ever got started.

Lon

 

[Lon]

8:20
The Revised Standard Version
for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;
The King James Version (Authorized)
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The point is it doesn't matter to the discussion.

I don't know, you've perked my interest now. (I did have a doh moment after posting when I went back over your initial before you responded-I should have edited before your response as I saw only two commas after posting).

With an OV premise, I think God must hope from that worldview. If He cannot know the ultimate decisions and destinations of men, it would be appropriate to say "God hopes men will come to Him."

From an Omniscient perspective (the rest of us) it would be seen as unecessary for He already knows the outcome.

If either could prove the point, it would be compelling.

 

[RobE]

Philetus and Lon

Philetus and Lon

Philetus,

Your scripture says nothing of God 'hoping'. Perhaps you have another.

I don't know, you've perked my interest now. (I did have a doh moment after posting when I went back over your initial before you responded-I should have edited before your response as I saw only two commas after posting).

With an OV premise, I think God must hope from that worldview. If He cannot know the ultimate decisions and destinations of men, it would be appropriate to say "God hopes men will come to Him."

From an Omniscient perspective (the rest of us) it would be seen as unecessary for He already knows the outcome.

If either could prove the point, it would be compelling.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.​

What's the 'frustration' here?

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it.​

Paul explains:

25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

23 ..., but we ourselves, ..., groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons,...

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.​

He further qualifies:

24 For in this hope we were saved....

Colossians 1:5 ...the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth​

Paul states that creations purpose is achieved through 'the adoption of the children of God':

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.​

And points that certain knowledge of outcomes eliminates the need for the hope that generates faith:

24...But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.​

So the 'frustration' placed upon creation was the concealed future. God not allowing man to know(see) the future:

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it.

John 20:29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."​

This produces faith in the man and achieves the condition of salvation:

Hebrews 11

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"​

 

[themuzicman]

I don't know, you've perked my interest now. (I did have a doh moment after posting when I went back over your initial before you responded-I should have edited before your response as I saw only two commas after posting).

With an OV premise, I think God must hope from that worldview. If He cannot know the ultimate decisions and destinations of men, it would be appropriate to say "God hopes men will come to Him."

From an Omniscient perspective (the rest of us) it would be seen as unecessary for He already knows the outcome.

If either could prove the point, it would be compelling.

1 tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, [and] one mediator also between God and men, [the] man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [given] at the proper time.​

John 6:44 "No one is able come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate​

John 12: 31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."​

Clearly God's desire is for all men to be saved, and His actions are intended to provide that opportunity to as many as possible, as Christ's death made a propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

I think there is a clear hope by God, especially in Paul's expression in 1 Tim 2:4, that all men come to Him.

Muz

 

[Philetus]

I don't know, you've perked my interest now. (I did have a doh moment after posting when I went back over your initial before you responded-I should have edited before your response as I saw only two commas after posting).

With an OV premise, I think God must hope from that worldview. If He cannot know the ultimate decisions and destinations of men, it would be appropriate to say "God hopes men will come to Him."

From an Omniscient perspective (the rest of us) it would be seen as unecessary for He already knows the outcome.

If either could prove the point, it would be compelling.

Thanks for thinking, Lon. That sums it up perfectly.

Well except that OV also holds that God is Omniscient; Knows everything that is knowable (the future doesn't exist- therefore cannot be known.)

The primary reason that God must hope (in the Open Theist's view) is because God has given a good measure of freedom to significant others who's decisions help shape the future to some degree. It isn't to be seen as a lack or deficiency on God's part as thought there is something God should know but doesn't. That's classical theology's classic fallacy; 'If we can imagine it then God must have it or God isn't perfect'.

Philetus

 

[themuzicman]

If God is Love, then...

1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind [and] is not jealous; love does not brag [and] is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong [suffered], 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails;​

How can God love if God does not do what HE defines as love?

Muz

 

[RobE]

1 tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, [and] one mediator also between God and men, [the] man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony [given] at the proper time.​

John 6:44 "No one is able come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate​

John 12: 31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."​

Clearly God's desire is for all men to be saved, and His actions are intended to provide that opportunity to as many as possible, as Christ's death made a propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

I think there is a clear hope by God, especially in Paul's expression in 1 Tim 2:4, that all men come to Him.

Muz

Which way do you want it, Muz?

You use "withheld" as though Judas deserved a chance.

God "withheld" grace from Judas in the same way that God "withholds" grace from those who are born, live, and die never hearing the gospel, and in the same way that the majority of Jews living in Jerusalem at the time failed to recognize Jesus as the Christ:

John 12: 39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them."
Perhaps the better way to put it is that Judas was blinded from seeing what Jesus was.

And again, in this post.

You can't have God 'blinding' people and witholding 'grace' and then desiring ALL to be saved. It's contradictory.

 

[RobE]

If God is Love, then...

1 Cor 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind [and] is not jealous; love does not brag [and] is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong [suffered], 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails;​

How can God love if God does not do what HE defines as love?

Muz

Is God provoked? If so, does God love? Logical error.

 

[themuzicman]

Which way do you want it, Muz?



And again, in this post.

You can't have God 'blinding' people and witholding 'grace' and then desiring ALL to be saved. It's contradictory.

If blinding one group of people makes salvation available to all, then it's NOT contradictory. If you'd actually think for yourself for once, you'd realize that blinding Israel was necessary for them to crucify Christ. Without that, no on could be saved.

Muz

 

[themuzicman]

Is God provoked? If so, does God love? Logical error.

Gee, if "love" means not being easily provoked, and God is not easily provoked, then I'd say that God represents perfect love, and this is perfectly logical.

Muz

 

[RobE]

If blinding one group of people makes salvation available to all, then it's NOT contradictory. If you'd actually think for yourself for once, you'd realize that blinding Israel was necessary for them to crucify Christ. Without that, no on could be saved.

Muz

You know well that this doesn't fit within your idea of open theism:

That's laughable. Go read John 6:44. If God doesn't draw him, then Judas ain't repenting. Period. That was the end of Lee's argument, too.

God didn't need to blind anyone, anymore than He needed Jesus to be placed on a cross according to your thinking. All of creation is coerced from your perspective in opposition to your stated view.

Also I should point out, that the 'blinding' didn't guarantee the result without foreknowledge of outcome. Your convoluted idea that God coerces creation through action, and reprobation of mankind through inaction is in direct opposition to your ideas of free will. One idea or the other is in error. Take a stand.

Keep Laughing,
Rob

 

[themuzicman]

Once again, Rob demonstrates his complete lack of intelligence. We'll just move on.

Muz

 

[RobE]

Gee, if "love" means not being easily provoked, and God is not easily provoked, then I'd say that God represents perfect love, and this is perfectly logical.

Muz

No. It says love is not provoked. Where did you get the word 'easily' from?

1 Kings 14:9 You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made for yourself other gods, idols made of metal; you have provoked me to anger and thrust me behind your back.​

If you'd quit shifting the argument it would help. It's a logical error to say that if God doesn't hope then God doesn't love; just as, it's a logical error to say that if God is provoked then God doesn't love.

And you want me to 'think'.

 

[RobE]

Once again, Rob demonstrates his complete lack of intelligence. We'll just move on.

Muz

It's probably for the best since you aren't even able to understand plain scripture. How long will you leave the blinders on to achieve your own personal desire? We're both tired.

 

[themuzicman]

It's probably for the best since you aren't even able to understand plain scripture. How long will you leave the blinders on to achieve your own personal desire? We're both tired.

No, Rob. You've had many things explained to you, and either you dont' get it, or you're just deliberately obstinate. Either way, I remember now why I have you on ignore.

Muz

 

[Philetus]

No, Rob. You've had many things explained to you, and either you dont' get it, or you're just deliberately obstinate. Either way, I remember now why I have you on ignore.

Muz

Welllllll, I think we are in total agreement. He is a mystery. :dizzy: I raised this issue wondering which he was in part one shortly after logging on to TOL .... I now think it is both .............. and lonely like you said..........................:mario:



Moving on.



If God has meticulously determined or even has exhaustive knowledge of all future events, why does God exercise patience?
(I’ll save Lon some time …. the ability to endure waiting, delay, or provocation without becoming annoyed or upset, or to persevere calmly when faced with difficulties …

Ro 2:4 - Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Ro 9:22 - 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?​

I find both Paul’s big ‘What if’ statements rhetorical in nature … that is exactly what God has done. God bore with great patience the whole world which God had made the objects of His wrath in order to show mercy to those he calls (unlimited atonement – 'whosoever'). The way we remain objects of his wrath is by showing contempt for … not realizing God’s kindness/patience is to lead us toward repentance. The Calvinists say the objects of His wrath and mercy are determined before hand by (double?) predestination of individuals as the 'elect'. But in Free Will/Open Theism the elect are corporate and determined by repentance, those who do not show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience but respond in repentance.

Is that accurate?

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace ... 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,​

Philetus

 

[lee_merrill]

God didn't need to blind anyone [in order to accomplish the cross]...

Of course not.

I should point out, that the 'blinding' didn't guarantee the result without foreknowledge of outcome. Your convoluted idea that God coerces creation through action, and reprobation of mankind through inaction is in direct opposition to your ideas of free will. One idea or the other is in error. Take a stand.

You should indeed, point that out.

Insults to people's intelligence by way of reply, make it clear that for such questions they have no answer, it would seem.

It would seem...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[RobE]

If God has meticulously determined or even has exhaustive knowledge of all future events, why does God exercise patience?

To achieve that which He exhaustively foreknew, of course. You didn't exist a thousand years ago. He does it for the elect. It's the same reason Adam wasn't immediately destroyed after sinning.

Welllllll, I think we are in total agreement. He is a mystery. I raised this issue wondering which he was in part one shortly after logging on to TOL .... I now think it is both .............. and lonely like you said..........................

I know it's the second! I obstinately refuse to believe doctrine which I believe to be contrary to scripture.

The first?

...and either you dont' get it....

It would require a little more depth to confound me --- shallow waters are easily crossed!

Muz wants it both ways, while rejecting foreknowledge to aid him. You, Philetus, aren't sure what you want; but you're more right than Muz is from my perspective.

I'm still waiting for the scripture which says God hopes. Have you found it?

Rob