ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[RobE]

I was referring to the Scripture that was being fulfilled... You know, the OT prophecy that Jesus was referring to?

Yes. Do you understand that Christ knew it was fulfillment of this same scripture. Or was Christ being illustrative for the Father's benefit? If so, then why would this revelation be necessary?

I already explained this to you. This is the LAST TIME.

JUDAS WAS REPROBATE BECAUSE OF HIS OWN SIN, WHICH HE COMMITTED LONG BEFORE JESUS CALLED HIM. THIS WAS CAUSED BY JUDAS' OWN CHOICE TO SIN. GOD IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DRAW ANYONE TO SALVATION, AND GOD'S CHOICE NOT TO DRAW SOMEONE IN NO WAY COERCES THEM INTO ANYTHING.

It simply leaves them out in the cold. It is against the stated desire which is God wants all to be saved. You are stating this isn't true. My position says God desired a good outcome for Judas despite what was foreknown. We must remember that foreknowledge of free acts are also absurd. How does this fit your ideas about compatibility?

We agree Judas freely became reprobate. I'm going to have to disagree with you, and Calvin, that God allowed Judas to become reprobate to achieve a desired evil act. This, from my point of view, is an evil act itself. The 'good' shepherd actively feeding one of his sheep to the wolves.

I doubt the caps, bold and italic will make you understand it, but it may keep you from ignoring it, this time.

I haven't ignored it. I've responded to it. You just haven't liked my response yet. I'll try it with you.....

God's desire was for repentence from Judas Iscariot, not reprobation. God's active allowance of Judas to become reprobate is in opposition to this idea. In fact it becomes positive reprobation in accordance with Calvin's beliefs.

JUDAS WAS REPROBATE BECAUSE OF HIS OWN SIN, WHICH HE COMMITTED LONG BEFORE JESUS CALLED HIM. THIS WAS CAUSED BY JUDAS' OWN CHOICE TO SIN. GOD IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DRAW ANYONE TO SALVATION, AND GOD'S CHOICE NOT TO DRAW SOMEONE IN NO WAY COERCES THEM INTO ANYTHING.​

My position holds that sufficient Grace was given to Judas, but it was foreknown that Judas would reject it. You are saying that God witheld sufficient Grace in order to fulfill the scripture. You are saying it was impossible to foreknow --- which leaves us with the conclusion that God brought it about through His own actions, i.e. God caused Judas to sin.

He's also just. Maybe you forgot that.

I haven't. Nor do I omit that God leaves men to their own sinful desires. I denounce however that God ever retracts sufficient grace. See, that would make me a Calvinist.

You've already asserted that the details of Judas' life and death are prophesied. You've yet to show us what was prophesied and how you get from that verse to what you claim.

Muz

I claim Christ foretold of Judas' betrayal in the following verses:

John 6: 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

Understand that it isn't me who says this meant Judas, it's Matthew who proclaims it.

John 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'​

Again Christ tells of a prophecy of events: Psalm 41:9

Understand that it isn't me who says this meant Judas, it's Jesus who proclaims it.

19"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."​

Verse 19: Christ states: I'm revealing the future to you so that you know I am God.

21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."​

A future prediction of a free will agent. I'm not saying that someone was foreknown to betray Christ. Christ said it!

25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"

26Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him​

Finally Christ reveals who is foreknown to betray and names him Judas Iscariot.

Verses which show Judas had not decided to betray beforehand:

Luke 6:15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.​

Judas became so he wasn't already.

Luke 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.​

Judas consented so it wasn't an individual act on his part to betray. God would have to foreknow the free wills of the chief priests as well --- but that is another proof and argument for compatibility of free will and foreknowledge.

I know it's your desire to escape the conclusions of your responses. I ask you now to retract them, to accept compatibility, and declare that all the scriptures are true accordingly.

John 17:12 'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction' so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Christ doesn't submit that Judas was chosen for destruction, but that He was 'doomed' or foreknown to be destroyed. You asserting that Judas was chosen for destruction is the centerpiece of Calvin's theology.

Open your mind.

 

[Philetus]

RobE: That Judas' destruction was fulfillment of scripture.

Every non-repentant sinner's self destruction is fulfillment of scripture.

:doh:

 

[RobE]

You miss the whole point. Surprise. Sorry, RobE. The future doesn't exist except in the imaginations and intentions of both God and man. Again its simply a matter of God given freedom. The question is which future is shaping the other and to what degree. In spite of the willful intentions to thwart God's plans, I'll put all my money on God's ultimate plans for the future, not because it already exists but because God is able. It's called hope. It is faith in God, not faith in the future.

Philetus

I'm sorry that you feel your argument applies to me while refusing to digest it yourself. Perhaps someday. I have no animosity towards any who Christ has appointed as worthy of His life. Remain in peace. Pray for guidance.

 

[patman]

And I can't seem to get you to realize you are redefining and watering down the definition we started with:
"Scripture shows that God knows his plans, he knows our (present) actions, and he is powerful. There are other aspects to God. He can use these and his extreme intelligence to see some future events just like you can use your intelligence to foresee your own children's future actions."

You haven't explained or mentioned foreknowledge once.

"...He can use these and his extreme intelligence to see some future events just like you..."

and have watered it down to be nothing like the definition of foreknowledge.

The bottom line here is that OV redefines this word other than pro-gnosis. Predictive-determinism is not foreknowledge. That is what I'm saying. Go back and read that dictionary link. Neither of these terms come up.

Here is the thing: I believe God's Word to be inspired. He'd not have used Pro-gnosis if that isn't what He wanted to convey instead of determine. Bouleuō is a good Greek word for that. Mat 6:8

I am trying everything I can to get you to stop digging and just take the answer you want to hear, or that makes you happy. You want it to be more than it is, and I can't satisfy your answer. I am saying this the only way I know how. It is what it is.

I am sorry, foreknowledge is just knowing something is going to happen. It isn't always 100% certain unless God wants it to be...

 

[patman]

I think the problem is that what you see as evil, I see as good. Your glass is half empty and mine is half full. Wouldn't you agree? We both see God as a benign loving Father, but for some reason you find His use of knowledge as a bad thing. I might even say that you see it as an evil thing if He uses it to bring about the best possible future for us. Why it matters to you when this knowledge is acquired I am unable to discover.

I am unable to comprehend why you feel this way at all. The only assumption I'm able to make is that some great personal tragedy has left you with this frame of mind. That for some reason, the world has become a dark and evil place in your mind. The world is good, and the majority of acts done here are good despite your claims to the contrary. It's a lie from the devil that God is able to make evil, His creation is perfect even though He allows evil to exist in it for a time, through His loving mercy.

Since we're both saying the same things, per your above statement; one of us must see God doing evil acts there while the other of us sees loving kindness. Perhaps you can cut and past my words which seem to cause your apparent frustration with me. Teach me. I'm willing to learn. Teach me with my own words, so that I might see what you see.

Your Friend,
Rob Mauldin

Rob, you are naive. The world is evil.

Romans 2
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Gen 6
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Even God hates how the world turned out... yet you seem to go against him and say "Ohh noo, the world's OK.."

That is why God is going to recreate it?

How can God's mind go from

Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

to

Gen 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

If he knows the future?

 

[RobE]

What verse are you referring to here, please? the verse that shows Judas committed a sin long before Jesus called him, that doomed him to betray Jesus, a decision he could not reverse.

Romans 3:23 - "All ahve sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Judas was already a sinner before Jesus called him.

That has nothing to do with whether Judas would betray Christ.

Muz

What verse names Judas as a betrayer or again are we facing a double standard with you in particular?

Judas being a liar doesn't equivocate to Judas being a betrayer. Or do you with Calvin, proclaim that only those given grace won't be reprobate. Sufficient grace is given to all --- reprobation comes about after all the free choices are made: not before.

Christ words were given while Judas was yet able to repent. Foreknowledge is the only viable solution here.

You still haven't answered how knowledge of all future free will acts disallows foreknownledge of individual free will acts. One being a subset of the other. Does foreknowledge make free will an absurdity? If so, then you, my brother, have become a Calvinist: because foreknowledge of 'all future free will acts' is impossible without coercion according to your thinking.

My thinking accepts both without coercion.

 

[patman]

Before anyone accuses me of not answering a post because I don't have an answer, I am making it known that I am boycotting this thread for a while.


I'm leaving it to the pros!

I'll be around and on artofsmack.com.

:wave: :wave2:

 

[Philetus]

Yes. Do you understand that Christ knew it was fulfillment of this same scripture. Or was Christ being illustrative for the Father's benefit? If so, then why would this revelation be necessary?



It simply leaves them out in the cold. It is against the stated desire which is God wants all to be saved. You are stating this isn't true. My position says God desired a good outcome for Judas despite what was foreknown. We must remember that foreknowledge of free acts are also absurd. How does this fit your ideas about compatibility?

We agree Judas freely became reprobate. I'm going to have to disagree with you, and Calvin, that God allowed Judas to become reprobate to achieve a desired evil act. This, from my point of view, is an evil act itself. The 'good' shepherd actively feeding one of his sheep to the wolves.



I haven't ignored it. I've responded to it. You just haven't liked my response yet. I'll try it with you.....

God's desire was for repentence from Judas Iscariot, not reprobation. God's active allowance of Judas to become reprobate is in opposition to this idea. In fact it becomes positive reprobation in accordance with Calvin's beliefs.

JUDAS WAS REPROBATE BECAUSE OF HIS OWN SIN, WHICH HE COMMITTED LONG BEFORE JESUS CALLED HIM. THIS WAS CAUSED BY JUDAS' OWN CHOICE TO SIN. GOD IS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DRAW ANYONE TO SALVATION, AND GOD'S CHOICE NOT TO DRAW SOMEONE IN NO WAY COERCES THEM INTO ANYTHING.​

My position holds that sufficient Grace was given to Judas, but it was foreknown that Judas would reject it. You are saying that God witheld sufficient Grace in order to fulfill the scripture. You are saying it was impossible to foreknow --- which leaves us with the conclusion that God brought it about through His own actions, i.e. God caused Judas to sin.



I haven't. Nor do I omit that God leaves men to their own sinful desires. I denounce however that God ever retracts sufficient grace. See, that would make me a Calvinist.



I claim Christ foretold of Judas' betrayal in the following verses:

John 6: 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

Understand that it isn't me who says this meant Judas, it's Matthew who proclaims it.

John 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'​

Again Christ tells of a prophecy of events: Psalm 41:9

Understand that it isn't me who says this meant Judas, it's Jesus who proclaims it.

19"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."​

Verse 19: Christ states: I'm revealing the future to you so that you know I am God.

21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."​

A future prediction of a free will agent. I'm not saying that someone was foreknown to betray Christ. Christ said it!

25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"

26Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him​

Finally Christ reveals who is foreknown to betray and names him Judas Iscariot.

Verses which show Judas had not decided to betray beforehand:

Luke 6:15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.​

Judas became so he wasn't already.

Luke 22:1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.​

Judas consented so it wasn't an individual act on his part to betray. God would have to foreknow the free wills of the chief priests as well --- but that is another proof and argument for compatibility of free will and foreknowledge.

I know it's your desire to escape the conclusions of your responses. I ask you now to retract them, to accept compatibility, and declare that all the scriptures are true accordingly.

John 17:12 'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction' so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Christ doesn't submit that Judas was chosen for destruction, but that He was 'doomed' or foreknown to be destroyed. You asserting that Judas was chosen for destruction is the centerpiece of Calvin's theology.

Open your mind.

The counter intentions of the opposition to the Gospel as being revealed in Christ Jesus were no mystery or secret. Judas’ downward spiral into the dark side wasn’t a surprise to anyone.

The dipping of the peace of bread and giving it to Judas can be seen as an acknowledgment that Jesus knew (at least at that moment) what was in Judas’ heart and mind. Judas taking it can be seen as resignation to carry out his plans. Such intent most surely opens the door to Satan and made Judas not just a traitor but the traitor.

Luke 6:15 was written in hindsight. It is historical narrative. Which, according to Lon, proves nothing.

Cake,
Philetus

 

[RobE]

Rob, you are naive. The world is evil.

Romans 2
10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Gen 6
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Even God hates how the world turned out... yet you seem to go against him and say "Ohh noo, the world's OK.."

That is why God is going to recreate it?

How can God's mind go from

Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

to

Gen 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

If he knows the future?

Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

God made man with the potential to do evil and yet His creation was very good. The fact that God hates evil acts doesn't detract from the perfection and goodness of His own act of creation.

If God hated creation then why allow its continuance. God 'so loved the world' because it was His very own creation not because of those who would attempt to sully it. Creation is good, evil; well, is evil.:thumb:

 

[RobE]

The counter intentions of the opposition to the Gospel as being revealed in Christ Jesus were no mystery or secret. Judas’ downward spiral into the dark side wasn’t a surprise to anyone.

The dipping of the peace of bread and giving it to Judas can be seen as an acknowledgment that Jesus knew (at least at that moment) what was in Judas’ heart and mind. Judas taking it can be seen as resignation to carry out his plans. Such intent most surely opens the door to Satan and made Judas not just a traitor but the traitor.

Luke 6:15 was written in hindsight. It is historical narrative. Which, according to Lon, proves nothing.

Cake,
Philetus

With no hope of repentence. Perhaps you wish to eat it too. There's always hope where free will exists. Yet this would fly in the face of Christ's words unless foreknowledge was present:

John 17:12 'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction' so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

 

[Philetus]

Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.​

God made man with the potential to do evil and yet His creation was very good. The fact that God hates evil acts doesn't detract from the perfection and goodness of His own act of creation.

If God hated creation then why allow its continuance. God 'so loved the world' because it was His very own creation not because of those who would attempt to sully it. Creation is good, evil; well, is evil.:thumb:

You equate the fallen world with creation?

Lord have mercy Rob.

:sigh:

 

[RobE]

You equate the fallen world with creation?

Lord have mercy Rob.

:sigh:

No I recognize that man's fallen nature is within creation but wasn't created by God. God hates evil, but what does evil have to do with His good creation other than co-existence(for a time)?

 

[lee_merrill]

Judas was already a sinner before Jesus called him.

That has nothing to do with whether Judas would betray Christ.

I misunderstood then, but my question remains, how do you know when Judas made his irrevocable decision? what verse is that? And it must be before Jesus' statement that he knew who would betray him, so the time when Satan entered him at the last supper will not do here.

 

[themuzicman]

I misunderstood then, but my question remains, how do you know when Judas made his irrevocable decision? what verse is that? And it must be before Jesus' statement that he knew who would betray him, so the time when Satan entered him at the last supper will not do here.

It doesn't say. All we know is that the possible futures from that point included Judas betraying Christ in one way or another, based upon Judas' present state.

Muz

 

[Philetus]

With no hope of repentence. Perhaps you wish to eat it too. There's always hope where free will exists. Yet this would fly in the face of Christ's words unless foreknowledge was present:

John 17:12 'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction' so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Jesus simply gave Judas over to his own evil desires. Satan entered him. Read Romans 1 & 2. The counter intentions of the opposition to the Gospel being revealed in Christ Jesus were no mystery or secret. Judas’ downward spiral into the dark side wasn’t a surprise to anyone.

Hope of repentance always exists. Sometimes it comes to late because God has some plans that will come to pass regardless. Even Judas tried to renege on his deal with the religious right of his day, alas to late for him. Had Judas repented and not accepted the challenge Jesus offered with the piece of bread dipped, I’m confident the opposition would have found Jesus another way and crucified Him just the same. The Gospel narrative isn’t written about what might have happened it is about what did happen and written in light of all that has been written concerning God’s plan for our redemption.

Your cake is stale.
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

I misunderstood then, but my question remains, how do you know when Judas made his irrevocable decision? what verse is that? And it must be before Jesus' statement that he knew who would betray him, so the time when Satan entered him at the last supper will not do here.

Jesus predicted they would all betray/forsake/deny him and scatter to the four winds. That proves what?

Jesus gave Judas over to Satan at the last supper. No longer protected him from the evil one. Pretty definitive, I would say.

Your question remains ... moot.
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

1 Timothy 1:18-20
18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.​

Can't believe you guys haven't made a play on this one.

Or this:

Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.​

At what point in time does God know to give particular individuals over to their sinful wills and actions? Not from before the foundations of the world, thats for sure. God has however, known from the beginning that He will in fact do so with any who live this way, but scripture gives us no hint that God foreknows exhaustively who will be handed over or when.

Sweet.
Philetus

There is biblical doctrine that helps us read the narrative.

 

[lee_merrill]

It doesn't say. All we know is that the possible futures from that point included Judas betraying Christ in one way or another, based upon Judas' present state.

Yet your conclusion requires this not be a free decision, and that this irrevocable decision was before Jesus said "I know those whom I have chosen." What verse tells us this?

Hope of repentance always exists.

Philetus is wrong here, Muz?!

Jesus predicted they would all betray/forsake/deny him and scatter to the four winds. That proves what?

It means he knew of their free decisions!

 

[Philetus]

No I recognize that man's fallen nature is within creation but wasn't created by God. God hates evil, but what does evil have to do with His good creation other than co-existence(for a time)?

You equated the world and creation as good. Why then does the world need redeeming?

 

[Philetus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philetus
Hope of repentance always exists.

Lee: Philetus is wrong here, Muz?!

Read it in context, cake brain.

Quote: Philetus
Jesus predicted they would all betray/forsake/deny him and scatter to the four winds. That proves what?

Lee: It means he knew of their free decisions!

Yep! Jesus knew it on the spot.
In fact, I'll bet they all knew it about each other, but like Peter, they didn't dare ... couldn't believe it about themselves. No great divine exhaustive pre-world foreknowledge there.

Philetus