ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[godrulz]

LH: FYI, my brain has outgrown my skull and now sits on a desk in a museum by Einstein's brain. I function like an external hard drive on a computer. You may have seen me on one of the Star Trek episodes. I was in a plexiglass case, the glowing brain, you know.

It is hard to keep track of the details of hundreds of poster's beliefs, let alone my wallet and keys.

Gal. 5:22-23 PATIENCE is a virtue, bro. God aint finished with us yet.

One thing I learned when I got my black belt (to defend myself from sozo if he comes a knockin) was the respect Oriental cultures have for elders/seniors. It is part of our oath at the start of each class. I also just read in the Bible the basis to respect parents, authority, elders. The mouthy sons were dragged away and stoned to death.

Do you think God would want you to be more respectful (I am your senior at 47...you are 16, right?) in your disagreements with me?

Can you remember everything I have ever said? Is it possible I have modified some views over time?:grave:

 

[lee_merrill]

Lighthouse,

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" (Mt. 6:23-23)

This applies not only to how we view money, but also to how we view people, especially other fellow Christians.

 

[lee_merrill]

I commented on your proof texts a few days ago (Romans). The context of corporate vs individual election is part of the answer.

But Judas becoming a reprobate would be an individual matter, how is corporate election explaining how Judas became reprobate?

And we still need to know how it is God knows only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel will be saved (though this may refer to most Israelites, and not every last one)--group dynamics does not solve the knot, for insurances companies estimate, they do not prophesy.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Lighthouse]

LH: FYI, my brain has outgrown my skull and now sits on a desk in a museum by Einstein's brain. I function like an external hard drive on a computer. You may have seen me on one of the Star Trek episodes. I was in a plexiglass case, the glowing brain, you know.

It is hard to keep track of the details of hundreds of poster's beliefs, let alone my wallet and keys.

Gal. 5:22-23 PATIENCE is a virtue, bro. God aint finished with us yet.

One thing I learned when I got my black belt (to defend myself from sozo if he comes a knockin) was the respect Oriental cultures have for elders/seniors. It is part of our oath at the start of each class. I also just read in the Bible the basis to respect parents, authority, elders. The mouthy sons were dragged away and stoned to death.

Do you think God would want you to be more respectful (I am your senior at 47...you are 16, right?) in your disagreements with me?

Can you remember everything I have ever said? Is it possible I have modified some views over time?:grave:

First off, I'm 27. Secondly, you've lost my respect and I've lost my patience with you. Thirdly, mouthy children were not dragged away and stoned. Seriously, where do you people get this crap?! What versions are you reading?

 

[godrulz]

Lighthouse,

"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!" (Mt. 6:23-23)

This applies not only to how we view money, but also to how we view people, especially other fellow Christians.

Especially old dudes like me...in his case, chronological age does not equate to maturity...the folly of youth. I am trying, LH, honestly, I just don't agree with all of your views....does not mean I am stupid or do not love Jesus:second:

 

[godrulz]

First off, I'm 27. Secondly, you've lost my respect and I've lost my patience with you. Thirdly, mouthy children were not dragged away and stoned. Seriously, where do you people get this crap?! What versions are you reading?

Deut. 21:18-21

Not just mouthy, but mouthy as a sign of stubborn rebellion...are you a wooden literalist with my posts? Sounds like too much McDonald's and beer could get you 'stoned' as well...I'm killing me....hahhaha.

 

[RobE]

You equated the world and creation as good. Why then does the world need redeeming?

It doesn't. Men need redeeming. Did Christ die for the grass, trees, and yes even those rocks in my head? No, Christ redeems men in order to make the perishable, imperishable. God's creation was good. Even Lucifer was unable to truly corrupt it; though it became corrupted in his own mind. God's purpose is served through that imaginary corruption towards His glory. See, what Satan thought as evil; was turned to good through God's Divine knowledge of outcomes. God only produces good even when others have evil intentions.

 

[RobE]

Jesus simply gave Judas over to his own evil desires.

Of course. The problem is the specific outcome which Christ refers to. There is no telling where those evil desires would lead Judas if free will choices aren't causal in nature.

All this from the Calvinist/Open View perspective. Remembering, redundantly, foreknowledge doesn't exist with the presence of free will.....

Say I wanted the outcome to be that someone betrays Christ and then doesn't repent. I might choose someone who has a proclivity to engage in this activity to be in the vacinity(Judas for example). Then what is my next step?

Satan entered him. Read Romans 1 & 2.

Satan entered him twice read Mark and John. Once when he went to the chief priests, the other at the Last Supper.

The counter intentions of the opposition to the Gospel being revealed in Christ Jesus were no mystery or secret. Judas’ downward spiral into the dark side wasn’t a surprise to anyone.

Except the god of free will theists who is unable to see the future actions of free will agents.

Hope of repentance always exists.

Not after Christ proclaims otherwise.

Sometimes it comes to late because God has some plans that will come to pass regardless. Even Judas tried to renege on his deal with the religious right of his day, alas to late for him. Had Judas repented and not accepted the challenge Jesus offered with the piece of bread dipped, I’m confident the opposition would have found Jesus another way and crucified Him just the same.

As Augustine and other theologians have theorized, but it wouldn't come to pass as Jesus foreknew, if that had happened. It would be against the scriptures had Judas repented. Scriptures which relate Jesus' mind on the subject were specific. I'm not sure what not accepted the challenge is trying to put into the argument. There was no 'challenge'. Just a simple understanding between men to get on with what they both foreknew.

The Gospel narrative isn’t written about what might have happened it is about what did happen and written in light of all that has been written concerning God’s plan for our redemption.

Your cake is stale.
Philetus

This is correct. Jesus foretold of the betrayal. Jesus foretold that it was Judas who was the betrayer. Jesus prayed saying that Judas was lost according to the prior prophecy. Judas betrayed. Judas remained unrepentent. Judas was lost. These facts are not in dispute. God foretold of the plan of our redemption even before the redeemer existed.

 

[lee_merrill]

And we still need to know how it is God knows only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel will be saved (though this may refer to most Israelites, and not every last one)--group dynamics does not solve the knot, for insurances companies estimate, but do not prophesy.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[RobE]

Luke 6:16 Judas was an apostle and BECAME a betrayer, just as Jesus/Word was God and BECAME flesh (Jn. 1:1; Jn. 1:14). Jesus was not always flesh and Judas was not always predestined to betray.

This is true except the predestined part. Congrats, you've proven Judas was a free agent. Now can you explain how his actions were foreknown? Even if Judas became a betrayer, he also became a disciple, a baby, a child, a man, etc., etc., etc. Judas actions would predestine(doom) him to destruction, but not before they were made or he existed. Unless, of course, you are arguing from an atemporal point of view.

This knocks off Rob's remote vs proximal knowledge issue and the OSAS (falling away/apostasy is possible) guys at the same time...two proverbial birds with one stone.

Not really. Christ points to the problem when He says, 'so the scripture might be fulfilled.' I know it's getting harder to keep track. You're forgiven. Remote knowledge. Also, the argument doesn't require remote knowledge at this point - only knowledge before the fact or foreknowledge, as it's called in some circles. BTW, I reject OSAS. One of our many points in common.

Ru elz, ru elz, rue lz...do the wave....rue elz (time to start selling fan club memberships again....speaking of which, The Who is selling Wholigan?! fan club memberships for $50...I think I will let my old Who fan club membership lapse).

I'm certainly a fan until it there are membership fees. :bannana:

 

[RobE]

And we still need to know how it is God knows only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel will be saved (though this may refer to most Israelites, and not every last one)--group dynamics does not solve the knot, for insurances companies estimate, but do not prophesy.

Blessings,
Lee

Yes we do. All, none, and some represent different quanitities of those foreknown free will acts. That's how they are being classified. All will be saved through their free acts, some will be saved through their free acts, or none will be saved through their free acts. How about one will be saved through His free act?

If free action and foreknowledge can't co-exist, then how might this be stated truthfully(or as fact), Lee?

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Rob,

If free action and foreknowledge can't co-exist, then how might this be stated truthfully(or as fact), Lee?

Then we have hyper-Calvinism, I would say, with predestination of some to believe, and some predestined not to believe. And God brings this about, and only the remnant will be saved, "for the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth," this being in fact, my view--that only a remnant will be saved, by God's decision, and this is his sentence, and not his foreknowledge of free choices.

We need to discuss some Calvinism, I think! But this does dismantle Ye Open View, with any of the options you mention...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Lighthouse]

Especially old dudes like me...in his case, chronological age does not equate to maturity...the folly of youth. I am trying, LH, honestly, I just don't agree with all of your views....does not mean I am stupid or do not love Jesus:second:

Let me repeat myself, though I don't know why: Your disagreement is not what makes me think you're stupid. Plenty of smart people disagree with me. Your inability to even know what someone believes after they've told you a thousand times is what makes me think you're stupid.

 

[Philetus]

For the English students out there, this is called hyperbole, an exaggeration.

Nay. Your just being modest. :chuckle:

 

[godrulz]

Nay. Your just being modest. :chuckle:

Humility is not thinking more highly of yourself than you should (pride/arrogance), not thinking less of yourself (false humility; low self-esteem). It is seeing ourselves as God sees us, an accurate assessment of our strengths and weaknesses.

 

[godrulz]

Let me repeat myself, though I don't know why: Your disagreement is not what makes me think you're stupid. Plenty of smart people disagree with me. Your inability to even know what someone believes after they've told you a thousand times is what makes me think you're stupid.

Stone him, stone him....er...tar and feather him...tar and feather him.

Chameleon? Which way the wind blows...

It is hard to understand incoherence or remember everything everyone has said all the time. I can't even remember what I say or believe half the time.

Back to our regular programming. I will try harder. Patience, grasshopper. So sorry for being stupid. My family calls me an idiot and other things, so you are in good company.:dizzy: Pauvre moi.:doh:

 

[Philetus]

Humility is not thinking more highly of yourself than you should (pride/arrogance), not thinking less of yourself (false humility; low self-esteem). It is seeing ourselves as God sees us, an accurate assessment of our strengths and weaknesses.

OK, you win. But where does it say that I can't think more highly of you than I should? I'm not letting you off the hook on this one. That was a best post! Period.

Oh, and BTW while we are killing ourselves with frivolity; I now believe in OSAS (once stupid always stupid) thanks primarily to Lee and RobE. I know how that one is going to backfire ... but what the heck ... if we can't laugh at ourselves we will never laugh together ... so we might as well just laugh at each other. Just when you though the party was going so well ... all hell breaks loose ... somebody has to bring up OSAS and use Judas as the scape goat. :noid: I think this thread has proven that Judas isn't a good example of anything normal.

"And I said to myself, 'What a wonderful world.'"

Philetus

 

[Lon]

I am trying everything I can to get you to stop digging and just take the answer you want to hear, or that makes you happy. You want it to be more than it is, and I can't satisfy your answer. I am saying this the only way I know how. It is what it is.

I am sorry, foreknowledge is just knowing something is going to happen. It isn't always 100% certain unless God wants it to be...

Alright mate, but I don't see it as 'knowledge' if it isn't 100%. We usually say we know about (parts of) something which is a qualifier on 'knows.' We do this in English all the time. It is a weird language sometimes. The Greek language does this sometimes too, but it is a big stretch once fore- is placed on the term. It doesn't work as well when we have qualifiers in English that allow for an escape. I'm just not seeing that it does justice to Knosis (knows). If we even just talk about knowledge, God knows completely where we dont. I mean, I know math, but I don't know all of math. He does. I know English, but I don't know all of it cuz there are still words I have to look up once inawhile. I do not think we can have a proper sharing of knowledge let alone fore-knowledge. It is foreign to my thinking to be able to draw a significant correlation between His characteristics even when I share in them as a being made in His image.

 

[Lon]

OK, you win. But where does it say that I can't think more highly of you than I should? I'm not letting you off the hook on this one. That was a best post! Period.

Oh, and BTW while we are killing ourselves with frivolity; I now believe in OSAS (once stupid always stupid) thanks primarily to Lee and RobE. I know how that one is going to backfire ... but what the heck ... if we can't laugh at ourselves we will never laugh together ... so we might as well just laugh at each other. Just when you though the party was going so well ... all hell breaks loose ... somebody has to bring up OSAS and use Judas as the scape goat. :noid: I think this thread has proven that Judas isn't a good example of anything normal.

"And I said to myself, 'What a wonderful world.'"

Philetus

Thankfully you also have included yourself in that list (at my expense no less) so I take your comments with a lot of salt and butter (just remember that I tend to get you where other's might not).

 

[lee_merrill]

And we still need to know how it is God knows only a remnant will be saved, and then all Israel will be saved (though this may refer to most Israelites, and not every last one)--group dynamics does not solve the knot, for insurances companies estimate, but do not prophesy!

Once Silent, Always Silent?

Blessings,
Lee