ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Despite my orthodox Christology, am I still unsaved in your mind because I embrace aspects of Open Theism that deal with the nature of God's creation (open vs closed)?

You are saved if you believe that the Son of Man died, not God the Son. From your own words that God did die, you place your own soul in peril.

The second person of the Trinity could no more die than any other person of the Trinity. The "persons" are of one unified essence of God. God is not a composition of parts. The Trinity was not three modes of existence (modalism). In case I am not clear, GOD DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS. To believe that is to embrace a heresy that places one outside the faith. Am I clear?

Moreover, by embracing the doctrines of unsettled theism about God's sovereignty, omniscience, and omnipotence, you erect idols and go off worshiping them, thereby grieving the Spirit and will have to answer for it one day. I assume you won't get embraced by unsettled theists within TOL since apparently they believe God actually, really, really, died at Galgotha. Why align yourself with so much heresy swirling around you? This is not the witness we are called to show to the world. Also, my comments in this paragraph assume OSAS. By your own doctrines, you could apostatize and be lost by your belief in things not supported by the Scriptures. If this is what you believe, you are urged to tread carefully in what you embrace.

How many of the regulars in this thread actually believe that God died on the cross? I would like to hear your opinions. None of the proponents, Boyd, Sanders, etc., are on record as taking things this far, so this would add a new chapter to the doctrines of unsettled theism.

 

[Clete]

First let me say that I generally agree with you on this, in the same way that humans die, Jesus, the God-man, died.


However, I don't think it's as clear cut as you want to make it out to be. There is a mystical aspect to God dying that isn't easily explained, and depending on how one defines "death", one might express this truth differently.


So, I wouldn't go so far as to exclude AMR from being saved, as we tend to use terms a bit differently, and from how I understand Calvinists use death, I can understand his reservation to express this in the same way that you do.

Muz

He denies that God even became flesh Muz! God cannot become anything in his theological worldview. The whole entire gospel story is one gigantic figure of speech in his mind. God becoming a man doesn't really mean what it sounds like. To say God died required a 300 word essay to explain, etc, etc, etc. Nothing means what it means any more!

I say no! The gospel is what it is. God became a human being, was born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life and willing sacrificed His life, not simply His humanity but His very life for the remission of sins and was raised from the dead three days later as recorded in Scripture. That's the gospel, plain and simple. It means what it says and if one denies it they deny the gospel and remain in their sins. AMR rejects these simple concepts because they conflict with his Greek philosophy of the absolute immutability, simplicity and impassibility of God and that's the only reason he rejects them! The only similarity his religion has with Holy Scripture is purely semantic in nature. He might as well worship Zues.

Notice what he plainly stated in his last post...

From your own words that God did die, you place your own soul in peril.

The second person of the Trinity could no more die than any other person of the Trinity. The "persons" are of one unified essence of God. God is not a composition of parts. The Trinity was not three modes of existence (modalism). In case I am not clear, GOD DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS. To believe that is to embrace a heresy that places one outside the faith. Am I clear?

He not only denies that God died IN ANY WAY, but now proclaims one's soul to be in peril if you do believe that God died!

What more evidence is needed?

You guys all think I've lost my mind and that I'm just harassing AMR because I've decided I don't like him and that is just not the case! I mean, don't get me wrong, I do not like AMR, but there are several people on TOL that I don't like and you don't see me harping on about how they aren't Christians. AMR is not a believer in the God of Scripture and he is being given wide latitude by a great many people here on this web site as though he speaks with some credibility on Christian issues. He is perhaps the most dangerous person to have ever posted anything on TOL. There will be people burn in Hell because of AMR. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, he is a hypocrite, he is a liar, and he is doing everything he knows how to do to lead people away from the truth and I have been doing my level best to demonstrate exactly that both for the sake of those reading these posts and for his own as well.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

All belief systems in Christendom (Catholic and Protestant) agree to the following Chalcedonian statement of the Incarnation:

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

To disagree is to embrace a host of heresies, plain and simple. I believe the statement, do you?

 

[Clete]

I've never even heard of the Chalcedonian statement and don't care to read it. I believe what the Bible says. That God became flesh and dwelt among us. That that same God created the universe and everything in it in 6 days, that He of His own accord laid down His own life and took it up again three days later. The supreme God of all that is became a man and died for my sins; He rose again three days later and now lives His life through me by the power of that very resurrection! How do you suppose a God who did not die, rose the the dead AMR? Can you explain that with your idiotic Chalcedonian nonsense? Are we to trust in the traditions of men or in He who lives, and was dead, and behold, is alive forevermore?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Like I said, "and lack of formal study". (sigh)

Pardon me while I refuse to cast off 1,600 of agreement by all Christian groups concerning at least one item in the Scriptures and disagree with person(s) who have spent too much time studying logic web sites and not reading the theology masters.

 

[Nang]

All belief systems in Christendom (Catholic and Protestant) agree to the following Chalcedonian statement of the Incarnation:

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

To disagree is to embrace a host of heresies, plain and simple. I believe the statement, do you?

Another excellent and Scriptural Creed to review, would be the Belgic Confession, that says:

"We believe that by being thus conceived, the person of the Son has been inseparably united and joined together with human nature, in such a way that there are not two Sons of God, nor two persons, but two natures united in a single person, with each nature retaining its own distinct properties.

Thus His divine nature has always remained uncreated, without beginning of days or end of life, filling heaven and earth.

His human nature has not lost its properties but continues to have those of a creature . . it has a beginning of days; it is of a finite nature and retains all that belongs to a real body. And even though He, by His resurrection, gave it immortality, that nonetheless did not change the reality of His human nature; for our salvtion and resurrection depend also on the reality of His body.

But these two natures are so united together in one person, that they are not even separated by His death. So then, what He committed to His Father when He died was a real human spirit which left His body. But meanwhile, His divine nature remained united with His human nature even when He was lying in the grave; and His deity never ceased to be in Him, just as it was in Him when He was a little child, though for a while it did not show itself as such.

These are the reasons we confess Him to be true God and true man . . true God in order to conquer death by His power, and true man that He might die for us in the weakness of His flesh." Article 19 (Emphasis, mine)

 

[Clete]

Like I said, "and lack of formal study". (sigh)

Pardon me while I refuse to cast off 1,600 of agreement by all Christian groups concerning at least one item in the Scriptures and disagree with person(s) who have spent too much time studying logic web sites and not reading the theology masters.

Notice once again no refutation but simply citation of doctrine and even the brazen pride in the traditions of men and his own academic pursuits. Pathetic.

AMR really does believe his doctrine over the plain reading of Scripture even to the point of denying the very gospel itself!

He has condemned himself with his own words.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Just trying to run interference for others who won't own up and answer the question: "Did God die on the cross?"

One has answered "Yes" and exposed their ignorance of the doctrine of the Trinity. Doubtful that there will be many standing with this one misguided person.

 

[Nang]

Just trying to run interference for others who won't own up and answer the question: "Did God die on the cross?"

One has answered "Yes" and exposed their ignorance of the doctrine of the Trinity. Doubtful that there will be many standing with this one misguided person.

I thought about putting up a poll, but that seemed a bit crass, plus it probably would not go over.

Unfortunately, I do not believe OVT'ers give such matters much thought, and if they are not seeking to learn by reading church history and the theological conclusions of the fathers of the Christian faith, they are very prone to answer such questions off the cuff, according to human reasoning alone, and thereby reveal their ignorance and vulnerability to false teachings of every stripe.

 

[RobE]

I say no! The gospel is what it is. God became a human being,......

John 16:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.​

This is the same Jesus who went to the cross.....

Luke 23:44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.​

....and died. Your statement isn't entirely correct.....

He is not a Christian as he denies the death of God for his sins.

...as Jesus' own words demonstrate. No Christian states that the Father or Spirit died in any way. In fact it can be said that only our body dies at death. Our spirits continue on after our physical death. The Godhead was spirit and not flesh. Jesus Christ's body was crucified and was killed, but His spirit lived on. Jesus the God-man descended into hell and on the third day his body rose from the dead, together with His spirit.

How does AMR state anything else? How does a spirit die?

He rose again three days later and now lives His life through me by the power of that very resurrection!

What does this mean? How does God live His life through you?

 

[Nang]

How does a spirit die?

​

Exactly.

Clete fails to distinguish between the persons of the Godhead, who are all equal in Spirit, but only One was sent in flesh like His human brethren.

This is not the first time that OT has revealed a serious lack of Trinitarian knowledge and insight.

It seems, few OT'ers are being taught sound biblical theology, or taught anything of substance at all.

And it seems, at least one could care less to learn better!

They are existing on humanistic sensationalism only, whether they admit it or not.

Too bad . . .​

 

[Evoken]

"Did God die on the cross?"

No. How can God, who is being himself and from which all that exists derives it's being and who sustains all things in existence cease to be? Were that to happen the whole universe would vanish. God cannot even will to do such a thing since it involves denying himself and going against his nature. Saying that God died for three days and that during that time the universe remained in existence and that then God, after being dead somehow resurrected himself (self-causation is a contradiction) is to put it mildly...incoherent. Not to mention, that this idea is without a shred of Scriptural evidence.


Evo

 

[Nang]

No. How can God, who is being himself and from which all that exists derives it's being and who sustains all things in existence cease to be? Were that to happen the whole universe would vanish. God cannot even will to do such a thing since it involves denying himself and going against his nature. Saying that God died for three days and that during that time the universe remained in existence and that then God, after being dead somehow resurrected himself (self-causation is a contradiction) is to put it mildly...incoherent. Not to mention, that this idea is without a shred of Scriptural evidence.


Evo

Amen.

It is without a shred of Scriptural evidence due to lack of exposure to solid, Trinitarian teaching.

It seems at least one OVT'er thinks he can refuse church instruction, but still get it right.

No way . . .

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I suspect he will spend the rest of the night studying and getting things sorted out. Note that no one has joined him in his claims, instead they rightfully distance themselves from him.

 

[Clete]

No. How can God, who is being himself and from which all that exists derives it's being and who sustains all things in existence cease to be? Were that to happen the whole universe would vanish. God cannot even will to do such a thing since it involves denying himself and going against his nature. Saying that God died for three days and that during that time the universe remained in existence and that then God, after being dead somehow resurrected himself (self-causation is a contradiction) is to put it mildly...incoherent. Not to mention, that this idea is without a shred of Scriptural evidence.


Evo

Death does not mean one ceases to be, Evoken.

 

[Clete]

How does God live His life through you?

By faith.

I reckon myself to have died in Him and that the life I now live I live by faith. God's word teaches us that we are identified in Him, seated with Him in the heavenly places, perfect and righteous in Him. I accept by faith that these things are so and as a result God conforms me into the image of His Son.


How long have you considered yourself a Christian?


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Evoken]

Death does not mean one ceases to be, Evoken.

Irrelevant as it doesn't really changes anything, Clete. Besides, "death" can also mean "extinction; destruction:"(source), so the use of the word is not incorrect. You are also ignoring the fact that God is a spirit, per definition #1 in the link, what do you suppose "permanent cessation of all the vital functions " means when it comes to God?


Evo

 

[Clete]

Exactly.

Clete fails to distinguish between the persons of the Godhead, who are all equal in Spirit, but only One was sent in flesh like His human brethren.

I do not fail to make this distinction! In fact I have repeatedly made this very distinction! It is God the Son who died for my sin! It was not God the Father nor the Holy Spirit who died for our sins but God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Servo]

Notice once again no refutation but simply citation of doctrine and even the brazen pride in the traditions of men and his own academic pursuits. Pathetic.

AMR really does believe his doctrine over the plain reading of Scripture even to the point of denying the very gospel itself!

He has condemned himself with his own words.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Amen. He can't see past his own arrogance and pride.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The Son of Man died on the cross, not God the Son, the second person of the Godhead. The Scriptures consistently use the first designation when referring to the humanity of Christ, the second when referring to the divinity of Christ. The divine did not die on the cross. That is the core issue that is being misunderstood. God cannot die and His creation continue to exist. There is only one God, comprising one eternal essence. The distinctive offices (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) of that single essence do not divide that essence into three parts.

The three persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the one God.