Is it your claim then that animals who haven't sinned won't die because death is an 'evil'? Furthermore an evil which is a matter of divine government.
Due to Adam's original sin, all of creation is made subject to death:
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the
bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Romans 8:20-22
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
...and I find this significant. Without being within the body of Christ I won't escape damnation.
Agreed.
How does Christ's suffering take away sins or establish Him as a scapegoat according to Calvinism?
The Father sent the Son into the world to bear the sins of the elect of God. Through His priestly oblation of blood, they are cleansed of all guilt for their offenses, and made fit to receive the righteousness of Christ, imputed to their account before God.
I agree that we haven't experienced His sufferings, but those who are His are exempt from the judgement.
Agreed. This is because He was vicariously punished for our sins. He suffered the wrath of God on our behalf, so that we might stand forgiven and righteous in Him on the day of judgment.
Christ in us/we in Christ. Is it possible that the body of Christ was there especially if the supernatural is atemporal?
The elect church (spiritual body of Christ) was represented in Jesus Christ on the cross. Just as humanity was represented in Adam when he fell. The first Adam and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, both acted as federal heads of their offspring; the first offspring being natural men, and the children of Christ being spiritually reborn men.
Or is it simply a matter of us becoming one with Him which alleviates the problem of sin and its penalty?
The matter of becoming "one with Him," is totally dependent upon the unconditional election of the Father, the cross work of the Son, and regeneration by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And I would say that the Holy Spirit and the Son are One within the Godhead and their fruits are cooperatively the same.
They are of the same essence, but distinct in their persons.
So Calvinism's claim is that Christ's atonement is self limiting.
No, Christ atonement worked redemption for every single member of His spiritual church body. The only limitation of the atonement pertains to those God declares reprobate.
Well this is where the teaching that I heard solves the dilemna. Christ who died has fulfilled the law of death for sinners who constitute His body.
What is the "law of death" and how was it fulfilled?
And all have received sufficient grace to believe, but not so much grace as it is irresistable.
If grace is resistible, men would suffer death, even though Jesus Christ died their death. Does this make sense to you? What good would that kind of (unsaving) grace be? It would prove to be non-efficacious and lacking in power. Does this describe your God? My God is all-powerful and His arm not too short to save:
"Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee." Jeremiah 32:17
In other words, a man's own natural consciousness is able to choose to accept or reject the grace of faith. Once accepted that same grace becomes effecacious.
Then you hold to the Arminian belief that salvation is conditional and dependent upon a sinner's choice and decision? My, I thought we were much closer theologically than this!
This is a Calvinistic confusion. The sufficiency of the cross was to fulfill the law(not eliminate the law) through paying the penalty of sin.
Rob, I never said one thing about the law being eliminated. You must be imposing others' arguments against me.
The cross wasn't complete salvation in itself or we would be speaking of universalism once again.
The cross work of Jesus Christ accomplished the salvation of His people. It was not a universal work, or indeed we would witness only Christians living in this world. We would have heaven on earth!
Salvation must therefore be a cooperative act.
When Limited Atonement is denied, then the concept of universal atonement must be denied . . .if one does not want to be called a Universalist . . .and thus the Arminian, semi-Pelagian position is born.
Salvation is not a co-operative act; we are saved by the grace of God and not of ourselves at all. See Ephesians 2:8&9
To say that sinners must cooperate with God and His grace to get saved, is in direct denial of the Word of God.
Within Calvinism there is no need for grace whatsoever.
Rob, Calvinists are the ones who teach the "Doctrines of Grace" aka TULIP.
Grace from my perspective is to aid us in our lives.
God's grace saves souls, and the grace-filled intercession and Mediatorship of Jesus Christ gives us help in time of need. But one must be regenerated and saved by God before they have access to the heavenly throne of grace. (Hebrews 4:14-16)
From Calvin's position it was the determining force for all our actions. Overwhelming power used upon us as a goad to drive us to do God's desires. Traditional Christianity has held that grace is an aid to us in achieving an end -- not a coercive force which we can't resist.
Are you speaking from the Roman Catholic view, or EO?
Absolutely true when you consider that God foreknew those who would be saved, just as Jesus prayed. 'Those who are mine will know my voice.' The blood of Christ is totally efficacious in this sense, but is not efficacious when you consider the working of grace and the destination of the reprobate. Jesus also said....
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
...which points that these souls, which were given, needed help and guidance for God to achieve the outcome. Calvinism would simply require grace to overcome the eleven to achieve God's ends.
You are simply repeating your synergetic premise with different words.
Men simply refused to hear the call despite God's desire that they do otherwise.
I disagree. All that God calls, are justified and glorified. Without fail. (Romans 8:29&30)
This is all true when you consider God's divine foreknowledge. All of these scriptures are speaking to the actual outcomes, not the possible ones. I'm not sure I'm able to explain this to you in an understandable way.
You don't have to explain. You are telling me that God's foreknowledge is a matter of God looking down through the tunnel of time, seeing who would accept Jesus or not, and those who do make a decision for Christ, determines who will be saved. Again, more words making salvation conditional and dependent upon the human will of the sinner rather than upon the sovereign will of God.
The foreknowledge of God does not determine who will be the elect of God. God knows whom He elected in Christ; He knows His own children, even before they are born to do good or evil.
And I contend that the Son's atonement and redemptive work on the cross was for all mankind. That through God's foreknowledge, He knew who would avail themselves of the graces that were given; and they would become the elect. In essence those elect would be the only ones which Jesus Christ's atonement and redemptive work would ultimately apply to.
This statement directly contradicts your next . . .
I would say that those are saved by grace through faith alone.
. . .For you are giving sinners credit and merit for having the smarts to believe in the cross work of Jesus Christ, and the good sense to not pass up God's aid in this life. You believe those who avail themselves of the things of God are somehow then in a superior position in life, opposed to unbelievers, due to their good choices.
This is self-righteousness, not faith in the righteousness of Christ, alone.
If grace alone was efficacious then why would Jesus need to atone for anything? Grace could simply eliminate evil within the earth through pure force.
Legal justification and pardon must have a moral basis. Jesus Christ vicariously supplied that basis of Godly forgiveness for His children, through the sacrifice of His flesh and blood.
It simply illustrates that both are needed, in conjuction with man's free will, to save a soul.
I heartily disagree. Sinners are saved by the grace of God alone, through faith alone, in the righteousness of Christ alone, by hearing of the Word of God alone, to the glory of God, alone.
Nang
