ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Philetus]

Think this through you wolf in sheep's clothing!

Revelation 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[h] “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
​

AMR denies that anything divine died on Calvary's cross. Jesus' body died but not Jesus Himself, not God the Son, just the shell of flesh that He indwelt.

The Bible teaches that God the Son the second person of the Trinity was separated from the Father, forsaken by Him on account of sin. It is God who had the ability to live a sinless life, it is God's life which is of such value that it is sufficient to pay the sin debt of the whole world for which God died. If all God needed was a sinless lump of flesh to die, He could just as easily sent a sinless angel to indwell human flesh and die for us but the death of mere flesh doesn't cut it. Death is spiritual not merely physical. Death is spiritual separation from God. When Jesus died on the cross He did not ascend to the Father but went to the place of the righteous dead, a.k.a. paradise, a.k.a. Abraham's bosom. He had been forsaken by the Father which is spiritual death, died physically, and gone to the place of the righteous dead. He was just as dead as any righteous person had ever been and in all the same ways. Jesus said that He had the power to lay down His own life and He had the power to take it up again. Could Jesus' body do that? Could the non-divine humanity of Jesus do that? NO! God is the only one who can such a thing!

AMR denies that Jesus died in this manner for one and only one reason. His precious and beloved doctrine of immutability cannot under any circumstances survive the death and resurrection of God. AMR has been given a choice, the gospel or Calvinism and he has chosen the latter.

Resting in Him,
Clete

That is the watershed issue. How else can you define incarnation? Atonement? Salvation? Unconditional love? Grace? I guess limited death goes with limited atonement.

Now, if we can get to the place that we can see God in Christ [still] reconciling the World.

 

[Philetus]

Why did you change the question?

Now I am forced to ask you!

Did God die for your sins?

Yes or no! - A one word answer is all that is necessary.

The lost who lived in unbelief will go to hell in disbelief.

"even if the dead were raised ..."
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

AMR actually thinks I follow him around! :rotfl:

I must be getting under his skin! :chuckle:

:chuckle:
Ya think? Let us know what you find there.

 

[themuzicman]

Calvinist don't like it when you point out their droppings.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

Indeed I do, sir, for fifty years and counting. Glad you made the proper qualification, "the God-Man" and not "God". At least some think things through from time to time.

I don't care what the that humanist is getting at, as my opinion of his current state is well-known and documented elsewhere. Since making my opinion known I have dropped the matter and simply ignored him. Yet he makes that difficult by continuing to follow me around and post hate-filled rhetoric directed at me, as his spiritual nature (and lack of formal study) dictates. Some cannot accept that their fifteen minutes is up and gracefully fade into obscurity.:think:

Do you reciprocate and think that Clete is not a fellow believer? Why or why not?

My opinion is that you both are believers with polarized views on theological issues.

 

[Clete]

Do you reciprocate and think that Clete is not a fellow believer? Why or why not?

My opinion is that you both are believers with polarized views on theological issues.

Well guess what godrulz! No one gives a damn about your opinion and God certainly won't be asking you for it on judgment day. AMR does not believe that God died for his sins - period.

Do you?

 

[godrulz]

Why did you change the question?

Now I am forced to ask you!

Did God die for your sins?

Yes or no! - A one word answer is all that is necessary.

The triune God did not die on the cross (I am not a modalist). The Father did not incarnate and die. The Holy Spirit did not become flesh. The triune God did not die, but the One who died, the Word made flesh, is God by nature.


Based on Acts 20:28, I can say that the Church of God was bought with His own blood (though some MSS say Lord). Yes.

Based on other verses, I would say the Lamb of God, the God-Man, died for our sins (not the Father/Spirit, though they are perfectly one).

AMR is reasonable to qualify God-Man (deity cannot die, but the one who died is deity...humanity is necessary to physically die; Jesus is one person with two natures, so could die, unlike the Father). You would be reasonable to negate his salvation because he knows the triune God did not die apart from the Word becoming flesh (Jn. 1; Phil. 2).

Yes...with the above qualification.

 

[Yorzhik]

That is the watershed issue. How else can you define incarnation? Atonement? Salvation? Unconditional love? Grace? I guess limited death goes with limited atonement.

Now, if we can get to the place that we can see God in Christ [still] reconciling the World.

And also to note, the promises of God (the triune God, not just Jesus) mean nothing from a transcendent God. Did God promise Christians salvation? It would be to God's glory to send Christians to hell. And who could question God? It would be righteous, no less.

 

[godrulz]

Well guess what godrulz! No one gives a damn about your opinion and God certainly won't be asking you for it on judgment day. AMR does not believe that God died for his sins - period.

Do you?

Do you live in a garbage can, Oskar? What color is your skin?

Men cannot judge the destinies of others, especially when the person claims to trust Christ alone for salvation. AMR should not be penalized for trying to think deeper. We are not saved by academic perfection. I do not know his view on the incarnation. Even if flawed, it is still not a denial of the Deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, salvation by grace through faith, resurrection, Bible as Word of God, etc. He may have to watch his semantics and ideas, but it is still not tantamount to denying the person and work of Christ, necessarily.

I would be surprised if He divides the nature of Jesus artificially.

AMR: Do you agree with the historical formulations that Jesus is one person with two natures? Do you reject the various incarnational heresies that compromise is full Deity and humanity?

God (entire triune God, Father, Son, Spirit) did not incarnate and die, but the One who died is God, so God did die for our sins. More specifically, it was the Word made flesh, the Lamb of God (who is God), who died and rose again. It does not say the Father (God) or the Holy Spirit (God) died and rose again.

You don't care about my judgments, yet you play Judge, Jury, and Executioner over technical clarifications?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

AMR: Do you agree with the historical formulations that Jesus is one person with two natures? Do you reject the various incarnational heresies that compromise is full Deity and humanity?

My view, and the proper view, is described here.

Anyone holding to a non-Chalcedonian position lands squarely in a host of heretical beliefs, just like those JWs and Mormons you deal with often. From what I read in this thread in recent posts by a few, the connections to Mormonism are too dangerous to be overlooked.

 

[godrulz]

My view, and the proper view, is described here.

Anyone holding to a non-Chalcedonian position lands squarely in a host of heretical beliefs, just like those JWs and Mormons you deal with often. From what I read in this thread in recent posts by a few, the connections to Mormonism are too dangerous to be overlooked.

Based on this, I do not see how Clete thinks you are unsaved.

Answering yes or no to his leading question is not the same as saying yes or no to Jesus as Lord, God, and Savior.

Despite my orthodox Christology, am I still unsaved in your mind because I embrace aspects of Open Theism that deal with the nature of God's creation (open vs closed)?

 

[Clete]

Do you live in a garbage can, Oskar? What color is your skin?

Men cannot judge the destinies of others, especially when the person claims to trust Christ alone for salvation.

Perhaps you cannot but I am able to read and know what AMR openly believes and what he openly denies. He is not a Christian as he denies the death of God for his sins. He is therefore still in his sins. That's what the Bible teaches gorulz. I'm not just making this stuff up off the top of my head.

AMR should not be penalized for trying to think deeper.

I never suggested otherwise. He denies that God died for his sins godrulz.

We are not saved by academic perfection.

No we are saved because we have called up the name of Jesus and believe that God raised Him (God the Son) from the dead. AMR does not believe this.

I do not know his view on the incarnation.

Of course you do! Otherwise you wouldn't have changed the question to make it easy for him to answer without looking like the fool he is. All you've done is made his trip to Hell that much easier. Sweat dreams godrulz!

Even if flawed, it is still not a denial of the Deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement, salvation by grace through faith, resurrection, Bible as Word of God, etc.

Yes it is godrulz. Not only does AMR deny that God died for his sins but he redefines nearly all the terms you just brought up! He doesn't believe in salvation by grace through faith! He believes in arbitrary election by fiat. And he believes that God predestined the very same sin which He "atoned" for on Calvary and arbitrarily decided to leave the vast majority of people without any hope because of the sin that He predestined that they should commit. In short, AMR's God is unjust! His version of salvation is unjust, there is no atonement that makes any sense, and on and on and on. Nothing AMR believes is taught in the Bible! Nothing! Everything you say about God is a figure of speech in the mind of AMR! The Bible says that God is love, AMR says that God is impassible and anything the Bible says to the contrary must be understood to be accommodating language stated for the benefit of the vapid minds of fallen human beings. In effect, AMR denies everything the Bible teaches about who God is, what God has done and why He did it.

He may have to watch his semantics and ideas, but it is still not tantamount to denying the person and work of Christ, necessarily.

Naive! Get him to answer the question godrulz. He'll squirm like a worm on a hook.

I would be surprised if He divides the nature of Jesus artificially.

AMR does not believe that God died in any respect whatsoever godrulz. Nothing divine can change, remember? He will squirm until his back breaks in order to preserve his precious doctrine of immutability.

AMR: Do you agree with the historical formulations that Jesus is one person with two natures? Do you reject the various incarnational heresies that compromise is full Deity and humanity?

How about simply asking him whether or not God died for his sins?

God (entire triune God, Father, Son, Spirit) did not incarnate and die, but the One who died is God, so God did die for our sins. More specifically, it was the Word made flesh, the Lamb of God (who is God), who died and rose again. It does not say the Father (God) or the Holy Spirit (God) died and rose again.

Very good! That's the right answer godrulz! AMR will die before stating this plainly.

You don't care about my judgments, yet you play Judge, Jury, and Executioner over technical clarifications?

That's because my judgments are not based on mere opinion! Who cares about my opinion? I don't even care about my opinion and neither should anyone else! Truth is not established by the presentation of one's opinions but by the Scripture and plain reason and nothing else! AMR denies the plain teaching of the word of God in favor of Greek philosophy. On that basis he is declared an unbeliever. It is not my opinion it is a fact. You want to disagree with me? Fine! But don't give me your worthless personal opinions. If you cannot refute what I've said with reason and the text of God's Word, then keep your opinions to yourself or expect for me to jump down your throat about it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Based on this, I do not see how Clete thinks you are unsaved.

He is unsaved because he denies that anything divine died on the cross, godrulz. He denies that God died. He denies that God became a man! He denies that God resurrected from the dead! He denies every aspect of the gospel message.

Answering yes or no to his leading question is not the same as saying yes or no to Jesus as Lord, God, and Savior.

It isn't a leading question godrulz! It's the only question that matters. If you do not believe that God became a man and died for your sins you are not saved!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nang]

He is unsaved because he denies that anything divine died on the cross, godrulz. He denies that God died. He denies that God became a man! He denies that God resurrected from the dead! He denies every aspect of the gospel message.

You sound like you are completely losing it.

No one is going to listen to this kind of talk . . . you sound too out of it.

 

[Clete]

You sound like you are completely losing it.

No one is going to listen to this kind of talk . . . you sound too out of it.

Coming from you I'll take that to mean I'm on the right track.

How about you Nang?

Did God die for your sins?

 

[Nang]

Coming from you I'll take that to mean I'm on the right track.

I think you are ill.

 

[themuzicman]

He is unsaved because he denies that anything divine died on the cross, godrulz. He denies that God died. He denies that God became a man! He denies that God resurrected from the dead! He denies every aspect of the gospel message.


It isn't a leading question godrulz! It's the only question that matters. If you do not believe that God became a man and died for your sins you are not saved!

Resting in Him,
Clete

First let me say that I generally agree with you on this, in the same way that humans die, Jesus, the God-man, died.


However, I don't think it's as clear cut as you want to make it out to be. There is a mystical aspect to God dying that isn't easily explained, and depending on how one defines "death", one might express this truth differently.


So, I wouldn't go so far as to exclude AMR from being saved, as we tend to use terms a bit differently, and from how I understand Calvinists use death, I can understand his reservation to express this in the same way that you do.

Muz

 

[Clete]

I think you are ill.

Good!

Proverbs 9:13 A foolish woman is clamorous; She is simple, and knows nothing.​

 

[Nang]

First let me say that I generally agree with you on this, in the same way that humans die, Jesus, the God-man, died.


However, I don't think it's as clear cut as you want to make it out to be. There is a mystical aspect to God dying that isn't easily explained, and depending on how one defines "death", one might express this truth differently.


So, I wouldn't go so far as to exclude AMR from being saved, as we tend to use terms a bit differently, and from how I understand Calvinists use death, I can understand his reservation to express this in the same way that you do.

Muz

One must think way ahead of themselves, and be extremely circumspect and prayerful when making blanket statements about Truine God.

If God = Godhead, and Godhead supposedly died on the cross, all the universe would have collapsed and destroyed, for it is God who holds all things together.

That would have been the end of all creation.

It is an impossible thing to contemplate. So Christians must carefully study the Word of God that teaches the essence and works and accomplishments of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The answer to these speculations are found in His incarnation.

AMR gives excellent advice when he steers people to reading the Chalcedonian Creed, and staying within its confines. That is sound theology; Scriptural; and has stood the scrutiny of church, theologians, and time.

http://www.carm.org/creeds/chalcedonian.htm

Nang

 

[RobE]

Much of todays church (at least in the West) seems to be going through withdrawals from its addiction to Christendom and its struggle to become the people of God IN the world rather than 'missionaries' halfway around it. Cravings for what must be surrendered ... the church as a place rather than a people, and cherished views of a Christendom-shaped West rather than an identity as a distinct community that is itself sent by God into its own social arena (the world), and the preoccupation for catechizing and guiding the faithful, rather than equipping and mobilizing witnesses to engage the world, and its tendency to guard and preserve rather than advance and grow ... are causing many to deny their own addictions. This is altogether logical, of course, if the whole of society is by definition already under the lordship of Christ or as some think that Jesus utterly failed to inaugurate the Kingdom at all. But it lapses into mere self-centered lust for power over others if we see Jesus as having established His kingdom at His first coming even and especially if His reign is being resisted.

The danger as I see it is that the great advancements in un-reforming the previously reformed will simply become another theological hiding place from the world. That rather than actually living the relationship and adventure of knowing ourselves to be in Christ and Christ in us, we will continue to make every effort to establish the church in our own image as lords over the world. Why continue to settled for our own little kingdoms until Christ returns to put an end to such nonsense as resistance to His reign over ALL things for the church (resistance which is evident even in the church as it jousts for positions to lord-it-over one another)?

Why settle for crumbs under the table when the Master has invited us to join Him for a banquet feast? Why not live in the freedom for which Christ has set us free? The time to surrender is today, not at the second coming. We all have residual thinking to overcome tomorrow as we go to our refrigerators and pantries to choose what we will eat for breakfast and then to our closets to decide what we will wear ... as if God didn't already know. The big question remains: Will we seek His Kingdom first?

Philetus

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