It was a joke. In reference to the verse that says households are saved if the head of the household is.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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themuzicman
Well-known member
At the right moment.
I don't think that's what he was asking. He's OV, as has been shown previously by his posts in this thread. I think he wants an answer from a Calvinist.
Philetus
New member
I got it already.:chuckle:
Lon
Well-known member
Probably correct in this assumption. Perhaps because it has been steamrolled over several times now, he decided to answer.
From timelessness, there is no 'when.' Just an act without incremental measure until the act began, which is a 'time-created' conception. There is no way we could discourse anything outside of our perception. Since we are entrapped by time constrained thinking, the answer is unanswerable by mere mortals with constrained intellects caught in logical progression (time).
Aletheia
New member
That's what I'm looking for.
The Open View answer: Some time before He created us.
The Settled View answer: At the exact same moment He does everything else.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
" . . .Before the foundation of the world . . ." Ephesians 1:4
Careful now Nang! AMR is libel to call you a heretic and a devil for agreeing with me! :shocked:
Lon
Well-known member
Somewhat, the problem is also that 'moment' is a product of a mind locked into 'duration' for that assessment.
It is rather 'timeless' which continues to be a logical problem exactly because our minds are 'finite' (constrained in time).
What do you think of Mr. Religions assertion that God never planned, decided, made, elected, or anything else? Mr. Religion asserts these things simply "always were".
What do you make of that?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I agree with AMR that what God planned, decided, made, and elected was always in the mind of God, and therefore constituted the eternal purposes of God.
:bannana:
Nang
Yet when you were asked.... "So, when did God decide to create us?"
You answered....
So.... did Go make a decision at some point before the "foundation of the world"? Or did that decision always exist eternally? (which or course would destroy the meaning of the word "decision" but lets ignore that for arguments sake.)nang said:
Nang
TOL Subscriber
God purposed, willed, and intended . . . and acted upon His purpose, will, and intentions.
So?
Lon
Well-known member
"Never" is a time constraint. Try to say what you are trying to say with no time restraint at all.
Lon
Well-known member
No, even imagination is held in what is perceivable. I mean, once I dreamed and I saw a color that did not exist in reality. Because I have nothing to explain this to you, it is without your perception to conceive it. I'll never be able to describe it to your satisfaction because nonmutual non-experienced things are outside of discussion. Besides, fiction does not have to follow logic. I could dream of a square circle.
The ONLY thing you can acknowledge is that I've seen a color that doesn't exist.
This hypothetical, because it is dream fantasy creates all kinds of logic problems, but God has told us plainly things about Himself that are factual and fall without our conception to explain. Having no beginning, is a defined existence of God that does exactly this in our logic.
Philetus
New member
We just discussed them.
I doubt that you or anyone has dreamed a ‘non-existent’ color unless the definition of color has changed. Even light absorption, reflection, or emission outside the wavelengths spectrum from 400 nm to 700 spectra exist but are beyond human seeing. And even if you imagined it you could by comparison and contrast, describe it. The OTHER thing I could acknowledge is that you imagined a color you haven’t seen.
Like Abe said, “It’s not the parts of the Bible I don’t understand that bother me. It’s the parts I do.” I have no problem accepting that God has no beginning and I don’t have to redefine the reality He has created for me to accept it. So even if God is from everlasting to everlasting, if God wants to relate to me He will have to do so at 11:01 AM, Anderson time on Sat. Aug. 11, 2007. What time do you perceive that to be?
I see your square circle and raise you one round triangle.
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elected4ever
New member
It is not the motivation to believe that is in question but the work of God accomplished in our lives as a result of believing. It is what we are as a result of God's accomplishment. I doubt that any of us had any knowledge of what would happen to us as a result of believing in Christ. Our knowledge of salvation evolves and not salvation itself. Salvation, the giving of life from the dead,. is a finished work and not a work in progress. We are saved, not being saved. We are the children of God , not becoming the children of God. Just as Jesus was the Son of God so have we become. We are in the world but not of the world.
Actually my conclusions are the only rational conclusions if one is to believe the testimony of scripture. I do not believe God created sin.
I believe that the children of God are in this world and not of this world. That makes us different from the normal inhabitants of this word that are not born of man. Though our bodies are born of men the life that sustains it is not. If we continue to believe we are still of man then we will give place to sin because as a person thinks in his heart so is he. It will not matter in the least if the belief is true or not. Everyone will act according to who he believes he is. We have the mind of Christ, not the brain of Christ. The mind of Christ speaks to the thoughts of Christ and not the thoughts of man.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I have this unction within to use the words with there proper definition and adjust my thinking to accommodate their original intent and not what men think the definitions ought to be. Such is the weakness of human language and its evolvement.On a side note: If we all had to be crystal clear we would all be apologizing in every post. I appreciate you admission that you lack ability to answer adequately. Don’t we all! (Well except for AMR, of course.) It isn’t so much your ability as your constant use of terms that mean one thing to you and something different to everybody else. That’s the Willy you need to let go of and set free or be prepared to be misunderstood and chided constantly.
Philetus
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