Mystery
New member
So flowers were never in the mind of God prior to their existence at the "beginning of time"?
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
- Status
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Of course, Scripture does not tell us these exact details . . .but I would be more inclined to believe that God's "mind" was filled with knowledge of inexhaustible beauty and the earthly flowers He spoke into being, depict just a minute portion of the beauty known by God.
Mystery
New member
Then the reality of the physical flower was always in the mind of God?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I believe God has exhaustive knowledge of all things; created or uncreated.
Lon
Well-known member
Before there was time, there is nothing you can ask with time perception/duration to understanding something outside of it. There is no way to express timeless considerations with any type of time reference in the question. It is the same question to ask 'when' did God think about or know something as it is to ask 'when' did God begin. He did not begin. How could such a question be answered for anything in the mind of a God with no beginning? Since everything in existence comes from God and proceeds from Him, how could it never have been not a part of Him? When did God know He'd make flowers? Can God write a new song? The problem is our finite ability to grasp the infinite. Some of the questions being asked are an attempt to contain the infinite within the finite. Without meaning to, you inadvertently cause a finite god to dwell in your perception. God is infinite, and one aspect of infinite is a lack of ability to apply any time consideration. An eternal past is just one such reality that is absolutely and totally outside of our ability to explain because it cannot be recognized by any progression or duration within our grasp. God is timeless.
I posted Mystery's here, because it is the same problem with perception.
Nope, I'm not going to let ya off this easy Philetus.
First of all, no need for the clock to be broken or drag in an old discussion. I say it does not move and you know what I'm talking about. It is in the exact same place it has always been (for discussion purposes). God however claims He does not change. So if you are going to go this route, and neglect to define terms, you are saying He changes which is less implicit in scripture, and you are pitting against this bold statement of His. I know you do not desire to throw away this scripture, so explain to me what it means please (any or all is fine).
Heb.1:10; Mal.3:6; Duet. 33:27; Ps.90:2
Philetus
New member
Your assumption is that time is a created thing that has no affect on God which is the settled view's foundation for arguing that NOTHING created has any affect on God.
An eternal past is just as easy to accept and a lot easer to reconcile with the biblical picture we get from reading the whole text than is timelessness.
The questions I'm asking are to explain the finite in relationship to the infinite. Just the opposite of your accusation.
So, if your argument is true that we can't know anything about being outside of time, isn't it equally true that we cannot conceptualize God as experiencing thoughts and events from before creation in sequential succession. Then why do you pick one over the other? Why not just quit?
Your clock doesn't change. It stays a clock. So how does it tell the correct time more than twice a day (assuming it ain't broke, wound down, has dead batteries or unplugged ... the contingencies are many.)
You have no idea how much I want to avoid dragging in the same old arguments like clocks that don't work. I should know by now that sarcasm doesn't translate well without smiles. Mal.3: 1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the Lord Almighty. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years. 5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty. 6 "I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord Almighty. "But you ask, 'How are we to return?' 8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the Lord Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the Lord Almighty.
13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the Lord. "Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?' 14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.'" 16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. 17 "They will be mine," says the Lord Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.
7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord Almighty. "But you ask, 'How are we to return?' 8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the Lord Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the Lord Almighty.
13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the Lord. "Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?' 14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.'" 16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. 17 "They will be mine," says the Lord Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.
God doesn't change! He is always and forever God! And one attribute that doesn't change is His ability to adjust at will to the contingencies built into His creation. God can change his mind without changing who He is. God can think and God can change His mind. Otherwise how could His thoughts be above our own. :think: The question is does God move or was Augustine right. The settled view lifts one verse out of context and toss the rest away to hold to this 'unmoved mover' notion because: "Since everything in existence comes from God and proceeds from Him, how could it never have been not a part of Him?". Answer: God is the most moved mover. God is creative. God is faithful. He adjusts to His creation without compromise of who He is. The unchanging God uses the word IF. Deal with it. What ever God may or may not be imagined to be doing outside of time, it has absolutely no bearing on creation whatsoever.
God is not timeless … God is patient.
Last edited:
Lon
Well-known member
Correct for the most part. We do have an effect, but my point is that we cannot consider that effect to be time constrained for Him. Yes, He is relational in it, but not constrained by it except as He's chosen to relate (like answers to prayers).
If you see eternal as unidirectional, but the problem here is that by philosophical definition (philosophical as necessary because it isn't grasped logically) an 'infinite' past is already a 'timeless' concession. If you believe in an infinite past, you automatically believe God is timeless, or you (or I, or anybody) are not fully comprehending the significance: infinite eternal past means 'timeless.'
This may be true, but I was talking about God, which means the opposite.
We have to at precisely the point where this finite revelation stops. God gives us finite glimpses of the infinite because we cannot go beyond our created ability.
So yes, we quit, but only after revelation ceases. What He has given, is the extremity of our capacity to understand, and the most important understanding of who He is, and has revealed is that He is beyond this. It is necessary to give us these extremes so that we don't make the mistake of thinking Him finite in any way.
It's fine. I hope you saw mine as well (and yes, I suppose for any who read us, it is necessary for them). Yeah, I should have warmed up the microwave (ever melt 'extra butter' on the side and pour it on top of the 'extra buttery' popcorn? Oh MAN! The Decadence!!! (try it at least once, but not if you are thinking of losing a few pounds). Oh MAN, HIGHLY recommend when you are in a decadent mood!Your clock doesn't change. It stays a clock. So how does it tell the correct time more than twice a day (assuming it ain't broke, wound down, has dead batteries or unplugged ... the contingencies are many.)
I agree with some, disagree with much here.
I believe we understand where we are both coming from here. God is unchanging. God is moved. The nuances are what we disagree on, but I'd suspect we'd agree with scriptures on both sides of this. They aren't contradictory, but rather limited in the sense that God's transcendent qualities are always out of our reach. We have inclinations, glimpses, and sometimes general ideas, but because He transcends, we have but these glass darkly images that cannot amount to more. It is not the plain views of shared attributes where we struggle. When you mention His relational attributes, you are quite right. We were created Imago Deo (in His image). We share these attributes and there should be no wonder that we most deeply relate to these and appreciate them because we can perceive and understand them from context. God uses words in relation to us, that help us both to grasp His relation to us (if, when, because, whether), and our understanding of Him. But God also has attributes which are foreign to us. They trouble our perception and logic precisely because we have nothing to do with them other than they belong to the God we love. So, yes, I understand what you are saying, but I also see God as very much transcendant from our perceptions. I appreciate your position on impossibility, but by the definitions He's given in scripture, He transcends not only our shared attributes, but especially those that belong to Him alone. God is timeless. If you accept an infinite eternal past in Him, you already accept this concept.
Lon
Well-known member
PKevman
New member
Amazing to you that I reject the core teachings that were propogated in my Bible school and by my early mentors as it relates to God? One thing my teachers encouraged me to do is to learn to think for myself and to investigate Scripture for myself. I am so glad that they at least did that, even if a lot of my teachers in the past were from Calvinist/Armenian backgrounds.
Omnipresence means literally ALL present. Is God all-present or is He not all-present, meaning present in all places at once? That is what omnipresence actually means, and it is a pagan Greek concept, and not a Bible concept. In fact the Bible is FULL of examples of places that God was NOT!
God is everywhere He wants to be whenever He wants to be there because God is free. He doesn't HAVE to be an unwilling witness to every single wicked rape and murder that occurs if He doesn't want to! The doctrine of omnipresence takes away the very freedom of God and says that for God to be God He MUST be in all places at once. This is exactly what was taught to me in my theology classes, and they are doctrines that I now reject, because I believe they are not how God presents Himself in the Bible.
Genesis 18:20-21
And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
These verses destroy omnipresence and omniscience by themselves!
We do not deny that God knows everything knowable that He chooses to know, nor do we deny that God is everywhere He wants to be whenver He wants to be there.
We affirm the Scriptures which teach us that our God is a free God, and He is capable of BEING and DOING and THINKING whatever He wants!
Case closed.
PKevman
New member
Do you believe God is free to know what He chooses to know?
Lon
Well-known member
This is kind of like asking if I am free to choose to breathe. I mean I can hold my breath, but it doesn't come naturally. Whatever God knows is a part of Him.
You would of course know our stance on omniscience, so what is you want to know besides that?
Is it a logic dilemma? OV says God knows all, they just only see it going so far in logical ability to grasp. I do not fault OV for the logic, it is just rather that I perceive them missing pertinent scriptures and that God has characteristics that are infinite (beyond our capacity to grasp).
You are being intentionally vague.
YES or NO..... was there ever a point in time when God designed (in His mind) how a flower would be constructed and how it would function?
I will answer the question so to prove that it is a fair "yes or no" question.
MY ANSWER: YES.
At some point in the past God designed the flower (it's construction) and how it would function. God made a blueprint (so to speak) in His mind for the flower and when He decided to create, He spoke that blueprint into existence.
Would you be willing to give a similar straight forward answer to the question?
YES or NO..... was there ever a point in time when God designed (in His mind) how a flower would be constructed and how it would function?
Lon
Well-known member
I don’t understand what you are saying?
I'll try to make this simple, but some of these concepts are difficult:
Q: "What do you buy the man who has everything?"
A: Nothing
In comparison, God knows everything so there is nothing to learn.
This can become troubling to our way of thinking because we always have something to learn. There is always something new. We don't know everything.
If we ask if God is free to know, it is like asking if we can do anything but breathe.
We breath from birth it is a part of us. It is part of our nature. God's knowledge is complete, it is a who He is.
Much of this discussion has to do with the difference between the OV and traditional Biblical premise. OV believes God learns like you and I to some degree.
This is, in effect, not recognizing any of God's transcendant qualities. I want to be careful here, because I don't want to mischaracterize, but what OV does, is limits those qualities about God that man doesn't have, not purposefully, in my estimation, but limiting non-the-less. It is the desire to be able to comprehend God with our finiteness which is impossible because God is infinite. The attributes of God we can grasp and understand are those that we share: Emotions, intellect, creativity. But even in these attributes, God exceeds our limitations. Sin further complicates this. Our view of love for instance is not only finite, but tainted by effects of sin.
However, God also has qualities we do not. He transcends our understanding of time by telling us He had no beginning. He transcends our knowledge in that He knows everything. Not just what is knowable by us, but even that which we've yet to, or will ever discover. To ask if God can choose to know what He knows is like asking if God can choose to be God. All His attributes are who He is.
Maybe an easier way to answer this is simply to say: "No, I can't choose to unknow something I already know." What we know is there. We don't choose to unknow something. I know my eyes are brown, I couldn't choose to forget that no matter how hard I tried, but this seems to be the kind of question that is being asked.
Lon
Well-known member
Yes
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You are a pastor who positions himself to teach the flock of God, while in admitted rebellion against the core teachings you received in Bible school which your mentors expected you to pass along?
I can only ascertain from this confession, that your Bible teachers and mentors attempted to teach you the distinction between pantheism and omnipresence, but you reject that truth, and now spend your time corrupting a congregation with your personal opinions.
(I wonder, on what basis, and by what credentials, you consider yourself a pastor . . .when you reject your only teachings?)
So you took their advice, and decided to "think for yourself" and rejected credible Christian who were Calvininst/Arminian sources? (I also think it telling and odd, that a pastor in an active pulpit, would mispell Arminian as "Armenian" . . .but that is nit-picky on my part, I admit!)
Indeed . . .pray tell, where? And refer to Scripture, please.
Do you realize you are presenting argument of what you declare is reality, and at the same time denying the basis for what you believe? That is very sad for you . . .
God knew the corrupted state of S&G. God came down to witness against the corruption of S&G. The question of whether this was reality or not . . .God says "I will know!"
Huh?
Case is not closed . . .because your argument is essentially contradictory.
Try again . . .
Nang
Can you give me an example of something you believe to be "uncreated"?
- Status