ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

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Clete said:
I agree with Delmar, Sozo is a great guy. He's got a temper that gets out of control from time to time, but who doesn't? And like I've said already, I agree with his position concerning the believers perfection in Christ but the fact that he doesn't worry about the definition of sin is precisely the problem! He means one thing by it and doesn't care who he leaves behind because of the confusion that he could have avoided and intentionally did not. In fact, he seems to relish in the fact that people don't understand, which is my entire point. My point isn't that Sozo is wrong in his theology, its that he couldn't care less about articulating the principles in such a way that people understand them. That's my ENTIRE point.

Resting in Him,
Clete
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No! He defines sin the same way you do! He defines Christian differently! And if he reveled in people not understanding him, why has he so happy when I finally did?
 
elected4ever

elected4ever

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Philetus said:
Maybe Lighthouse supports the view. I like both of those guys. I know Sozo from the forums and Lighthouse in the flesh. Got no beef with either. But what the heck does that subject have to do with Open Theism? (except that it shows up everywhere E4E posts)
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You ask a good question Philetus. I as you believe in open theism but it is only open to who a person is and not to who a person is not. The scripture testifies that we are of God if we are saved. We cannot be of God and be a sinner. That is an absolute not a choice. Wouldn't you agree that it is the will of every child of God to do the will of God? We are at liberty to do the will of God and God does not dictate to us our choices in doing so. We are to seek the best gifts, so how can we seek if our gifts are already assigned to us unilaterally? Like a wise man once said, "Opportunity calls on those who are prepared to receive it." I don't give a shotgun to a 2 year old even if he wants one. Our mistakes are not sins. Do they miss the mark? Well of course but it does no good to the believer if he loses his confidence in his ability to serve. He only turns inward and secretive for fear of offending God or his brother. I hope this answers your question. Your question is very good but my ability to answer is licking for this i apologize.
 
Lon

Lon

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elected4ever said:
You ask a good question Philetus. I as you believe in open theism but it is only open to who a person is and not to who a person is not. The scripture testifies that we are of God if we are saved. We cannot be of God and be a sinner. That is an absolute not a choice. Wouldn't you agree that it is the will of every child of God to do the will of God? We are at liberty to do the will of God and God does not dictate to us our choices in doing so. We are to seek the best gifts, so how can we seek if our gifts are already assigned to us unilaterally? Like a wise man once said, "Opportunity calls on those who are prepared to receive it." I don't give a shotgun to a 2 year old even if he wants one. Our mistakes are not sins. Do they miss the mark? Well of course but it does no good to the believer if he loses his confidence in his ability to serve. He only turns inward and secretive for fear of offending God or his brother. I hope this answers your question. Your question is very good but my ability to answer is licking for this i apologize.
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This post, btw changes the statistics I gave earlier quite a bit!
 
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godrulz

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Delmar said:
I love Sozo! Sozo is a friend of mine and I would gladly have him for a neighbor, but if Sozo chooses to address things through a third party, it works pretty well and, it prevents him from flaming out. Let us also remember that if he wishes to be reinstated he knows who to contact.
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My wife is sorta worried that he will show up at our door someday with a weapon.

If I were him, I would want the freedom of posting directly. Put him on a leash?
 
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godrulz

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Mystery said:
Seriously? That's terrible. He should apologize to you and your wife. No one should make someone else live in fear like that.
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Based on previous history, she thinks he is psycho. I was half joking.

I would love him or any TOL to visit my house in Canada. Sozo would be a teddy bear (all bark, no bite) and I would be able to show people I do not have two heads and green skin (double chin and pale skin maybe).
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Mystery said:
Seriously? That's terrible. He should apologize to you and your wife. No one should make someone else live in fear like that.
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I don't know . . .my husband is kinda hoping Clete shows up at our door, some day.

:madmad:
 
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godrulz

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Mystery said:
She sounds like a very godly woman.
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She is a pastor's daughter. I was unchurched. She has more years in the faith and a heart after God. Neither one of us is perfect.

She also is in a wheelchair with MS, so my hats off to her for her grace in the face of suffering.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
elected4ever said:
Are you as Christ is today? If not then it will not make sense to you. I declare by faith that as Christ is so am I in this world. Are you willing to make such a declaration? If you are not as Christ is you are not in Him because you cannot be in Christ and not be as He is.
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NO! 1Jn 3:2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.

This idea is more than just 'sin as seen by the Mosaic Law.' It is problematic theology that sees us as 'already having arrived' on earth.
This is positionally true, but experiencially false. E4 makes the mistake of believing it to be both. We have NOT yet arrived. "Hope" is necessity in our faith. If his assessment were correct, the need for hope in Christ's work and our redemption and a need to look toward a future glorification becomes unessential.
 
Philetus

Philetus

New member
elected4ever said:
You ask a good question Philetus. I as you believe in open theism but it is only open to who a person is and not to who a person is not. The scripture testifies that we are of God if we are saved. We cannot be of God and be a sinner. That is an absolute not a choice. Wouldn't you agree that it is the will of every child of God to do the will of God? We are at liberty to do the will of God and God does not dictate to us our choices in doing so. We are to seek the best gifts, so how can we seek if our gifts are already assigned to us unilaterally? Like a wise man once said, "Opportunity calls on those who are prepared to receive it." I don't give a shotgun to a 2 year old even if he wants one. Our mistakes are not sins. Do they miss the mark? Well of course but it does no good to the believer if he loses his confidence in his ability to serve. He only turns inward and secretive for fear of offending God or his brother. I hope this answers your question. Your question is very good but my ability to answer is licking for this i apologize.
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I take your phrase “of God” to mean those who have receive the gift of salvation by grace through faith. Was their future not open to choose to be no longer ‘of the world’ by repenting and receiving Jesus through the work of Holy Spirit? Your narrow definition is inconsistent. Is the person who is not ‘of God’ not also free to choose between rape and/or robbery or who to rape and what to steal? If so then that person’s future is also at least partially open even if he/she only makes mundane decisions like whether to steal the red car instead of the green one. That choice will affect the lives and the futures of both car owners whether they are 'of God' or not. One will be driving while the other will be taking the bus.

I understand your position as "of God" or “in Christ” to mean our sins (past, present and future) are no longer counted against us. Jesus has purchased our salvation! Being of God/in Christ is who we are ... not what we do. But the way you try to make sin/not sinning a universal watershed issue for old and new natures, is (as others have pointed out) confusing as heck. You seem to buy into the ‘totally depravity/inability’ of the Calvinists, their ‘limited atonement’ and the 'open future'. I don’t think you will ever reconcile those three rationally. Simply dismissing the irreconcilable differences by saying God’s ways/thoughts are higher than ours won’t cut it. That's their cop out. We have to do better.


On a side note: If we all had to be crystal clear we would all be apologizing in every post. I appreciate you admission that you lack ability to answer adequately. Don’t we all! (Well except for AMR, of course. :rolleyes: ) It isn’t so much your ability as your constant use of terms that mean one thing to you and something different to everybody else. That’s the Willy you need to let go of and set free or be prepared to be misunderstood and chided constantly.

Philetus
 
Philetus

Philetus

New member
Lon said:
NO! 1Jn 3:2 Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is.

This idea is more than just 'sin as seen by the Mosaic Law.' It is problematic theology that sees us as 'already having arrived' on earth.
This is positionally true, but experiencially false. E4 makes the mistake of believing it to be both. We have NOT yet arrived. "Hope" is necessity in our faith. If his assessment were correct, the need for hope in Christ's work and our redemption and a need to look toward a future glorification becomes unessential.
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Man, I wish I had said that.

"Hope" is the greatest evidence that the future remains open.
 
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