Trinity anchor will pull you down
Trinity anchor will pull you down
There is a phenomenon in the human mind called "anchoring." If I ask you if you think that the Mississippi River is shorter or longer than 50,000 miles, then ask you how long you think it is, you will give a bigger number than if, assuming you don't know the real length, I first ask you if the river is shorter or longer than 300 miles. Your mind gets "anchored" in the direction of the original question.
When reading scripture, people first learn from trusted advisers that "God is a Trinity, Three co-equal in majesty..." etc, and then later try to read the scriptures. Lo and behold, they see in the direction of the originally fed dogma. It is remarkably predictable psychology. This is why, statistically, the children of people of a certain religion or sect tend to see things not too differently from their parents, or at least their society. This is a major factor in you being Catholic/Protestant rather than Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim. You are convinced of your utter objectivity, but for the external observer, the fact that you get a Trinity as a primary and clear doctrine from a book that only mentions one trinity, and that is the 666 on the forehead of the antichrist. It took centuries to formulate "3 Persons in One God" and it is, in fact, an absurdity, contrary to all of nature. Yet, millions amazingly see this as "the easiest way to deal with difficult texts such as John 1:1."
Anyway, let's look at the "incontestible scriptural proof of Trinity," shall we?
Bob Hill said:
Bacon,
I struggled with the Trinity vs a Unity for a number of years, but even though some of my inlaws, who I esteemed very highly, did not believe in the trinity, I wrestled with the problems they presented and came to the conclusion that the Son was, and is, God.
Why is the Son called Immanuel, which is translated, “God with us” if He was not God with us? Mat 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
There is more than one way for someone to be "with" people besides physical. Here are a couple of verses that do not indicate physical proximity or being birthed into the household:
Ge 21:20 And God was with the child, and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Ge 26:28 And they said, We have surely seen that the Lord was with thee, and we said, Let there be an oath between us and thee, and we will make a covenant with thee,
Semitic people observe a practice of incorporating the name of their deity, whether Allah or El or Jehovah, or what have you into the names of their offspring.
This is a much more straightforward explanation than that the son of the god was the god himself, reincarnated, no?
Bob Hill said:
When Satan was tempting the Son, was He, the Son, God? In answer to Satan’s last question in Luke 4:12, Christ answered with this: Luke 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’” Was the Son really “the LORD your God.”?
We all know John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It still says “the Word was God”, whether you want to make this God a lesser God or accept it as a deity statement. If He was a God, you know the Scripture says there is only one God.
How can the Son be, even, a God, if He is not God? That would make 2 Gods. God says there is only one God. Because I believe God manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, He is still one God.
Heb 1:5,6 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” If Christ was not God, why would the Father say, “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” Shouldn’t the angels worship only the Father?
Heb 1:7-9 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Why does the Father say to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”, if the Son is not God?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
The devil, like Jesus, was essentially a man. Jesus was a man. The devil was testing him to see if he actually was the son of the god. He attempted to persuade him to test the god by casting himself from a high point of the temple - to see if the god would save him. Jesus refused to do this because to do so would be to "put the lord [Jehovah, who is] your god to a test." Now that you have a simpler understanding [the real meaning of the text] will you change your view? Of course not.
Ok - "this day I have begotten you." Doesn't that scream "not eternally begotten?" To a rational mind, it would.
"Let all the angels of god worship him" is a quote from the LXX that does not read the same in the Hebrew. This is another example where the inappropriateness of the Hebrew text is demonstrated. The relevant text to christianity is the LXX, though Christianity has abandoned it in preference to the Masoretic text - a Hebrew text from a thousand years later. Here is the passage. See the last verse:
Deut 32:
1 ¶ Attend, O heaven, and I will speak; and let the earth hear the words out of my mouth.
2 Let my speech be looked for as the rain, and my words come down as dew, as the shower upon the herbage, and as snow upon the grass.
3 For I have called on the name of the Lord: assign ye greatness to our God.
4 As for God, his works are true, and all his ways are {1} judgment: God is faithful, and there is no unrighteousness in him; just and holy is the Lord. {1) Gr. judgments}
5 They have sinned, not pleasing him; spotted children, a froward and perverse generation.
6 Do ye thus recompense the Lord? is the people thus foolish and unwise? did not he himself thy father purchase thee, and make thee, and form thee?
7 ¶ Remember the days of old, consider the years {1} for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. {1) Gr. in ages of ages}
8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God.
9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance.
10 He maintained him in the wilderness, in burning thirst and a dry land: he led him about and instructed him, and kept him as the apple of an eye.
11 As an eagle would watch over his brood, and yearns over his young, receives them having spread his wings, and takes them up on his back:
12 the Lord alone led them, there was no strange god with them.
13 He brought them up on the strength of the land; he fed them with the fruits of the fields; they sucked honey out of the rock, and oil out of the solid rock.
14 Butter of cows, and milk of sheep, with the fat of lambs and rams, of calves and kids, with fat of kidneys of wheat; and he drank wine, the blood of the grape.
15 ¶ So Jacob ate and was filled, and the beloved one kicked; he grew fat, he became thick and broad: then he forsook the God that made him, and departed from God his Saviour.
16 They provoked me to anger with strange gods; with their abominations they bitterly angered me.
17 They sacrificed to devils, and not to God; to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not.
18 Thou hast forsaken God that begot thee, and forgotten God who feeds thee.
19 ¶ And the Lord saw, and was jealous; and was provoked by the anger of his sons and daughters,
20 and said, I will turn away my face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith.
21 {1} They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding. {1) Ro 10:19}
22 For a fire has been kindled out of my wrath, it shall burn to hell below; it shall devour the land, and the fruits of it; it shall set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will gather evils upon them, and will {1} fight with my weapons against them. {1) Gr. cause my weapons to war together against them}
24 They shall be consumed with hunger and the devouring of birds, and there shall be irremediable {1} destruction: I will send forth against them the teeth of wild beasts, with the rage of serpents creeping on the ground. {1) Gr. downfall, or falling away}
25 Without, the sword shall bereave them of children, and terror shall issue out of the secret chambers; the young man shall perish with the virgin, the suckling with him who has grown old.
26 ¶ I said, I will scatter them, and I will cause their memorial to cease from among men.
27 Were it not for the wrath of the enemy, lest they should live long, lest their enemies should combine against them; lest they should say, Our own high arm, and not the Lord, has done all these things.
28 It is a nation that has lost counsel, neither is there understanding in them.
29 They had not sense to understand: let them reserve these things against the time to come.
30 How {1} should one pursue a thousand, and two rout tens of thousands, if God had not sold them, and the Lord delivered them up? {1) Gr. shall}
31 For their gods are not as our God, but our enemies are void of understanding.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and their vine–branch of Gomorrha: their grape is a grape of gall, their cluster is one of bitterness.
33 Their wine is the rage of serpents, and the incurable rage of asps.
34 Lo! are not these things stored up by me, and sealed among my treasures?
35 In the day of vengeance {1} I will recompense, whensoever their foot shall be tripped up; for the day of their destruction is near to them, and the judgments at hand are close upon you. {1) Ro 12:19}
36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and shall be comforted over his servants; for he saw that they were {1} utterly weakened, and failed in the hostile invasion, and were become feeble: {1) Gr. paralyzed}
37 and the Lord said, Where are their gods on whom they trusted?
38 the fat of whose sacrifices ye ate, and ye drank the wine of their drink–offerings? let them arise and help you, and be your protectors.
39 ¶ Behold, behold that I am he, and there is no god beside me: I kill, and I will make to live: I will smite, and I will heal; and there is none who shall deliver out of my hands.
40 For I will lift up my hand to heaven, and swear by my right hand, and I will say, I live for ever.
41 For I will sharpen my sword like lightning, and my hand shall take hold of judgment; and I will render judgment to my enemies, and will recompense them that hate me.
42 I will make my weapons drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, it shall glut itself with the blood of the wounded, and from the captivity of the {1} heads of their enemies that rule over them. {1) Alex. eynwn, Gentiles}
43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; {1} rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. {1) Ro 15:10}
In the original context, the "son" was Jacob (Israel) whom the lord is returning from captivity.
The point for Hebrews is that being a son is a high, high position. Even angels were to do Jacob obeisance in this song. This did not make Jakob out to be a "member" of the one true god. Again, this is all information that is right there in the scripture - if only people weren't so "anchored" in the direction of folly!
And I have already pointed out that "your throne [is] the god/your sceptre is righteousness" is all that is meant - obvious from the parallelism of this psalm.
If you had been "anchored" to believe that Jacob was the god, you would have had your "proof" in the one verse of Deut 32:43. But an honest reading, unbiased, has a simpler explanation. And Ocam's Razor dictates that we not leap into a bizarre redefinition of the god. Jesus did not come to change the object of worship:
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jesus worships the god.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Paul explicitly declares that the father is the one god:
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
With such abundant proof, why are you so easily swayed into an absurd position by a couple of difficult passages, none of which teach that the one true god is actually three.
There is not even a single verse of scripture that says that the god is three in one, that Jesus is the god, that "the Holy Spirit" is the god or that they are "co-equal in majesty."
