Exegesis? Or "I-see-Je-sus"?
Exegesis? Or "I-see-Je-sus"?
godrulz said:
Rom. 6:10, in context, affirms that Christ died as a substitute for the penalty of sin, once for all, in contrast to repeated animal sacrifices. He is the sinless, Holy One of Israel, a Lamb without blemish. The life He lives, He lives to the Father (God). This does not preclude Him from being Deity as part of the triune Godhead. Paul is making an analogy of Christ's sinless life, substitutionary atonement, and resurrection for our identification with Him in death to Self and newness of life in Christ. Other verses refute your idea that Christ had sin.
godrulz, this is not exegesis. This is looking at words that say that Jesus "died to sin" and then ignoring them and saying "Christ died as a penalty of sin, once for all...etc."
So is the christian to have a like death? Do christians die as a substitute for the sins of others? I thought believers were to, like Jesus, die to sin?
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 ***Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin***, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Where do the scriptures say that Jesus died as a substitute for the penalty of sin? Where that he was a "substitutionary atonement"?
godrulz, my exegesis is faithful to the text; yours to Catholic/Protestant/Trinitarian dogma.
godrulz said:
Heb. 5:8, 9 This relates to Christ's voluntary submission to the Father while the God-man on earth. He obeyed the Father as we are to also obey God. Obedience does not make us sinless nor deal with our sin. Obedience did not mean Christ had sin. 'Perfect' also means mature. Jesus was God, but He grew/matured as a man (Lk. 2:52). He was perfect in one sense as God, but matured as a man dependent on the Spirit of God. This does not preclude sinless perfection.
So obedience to one's god is optional? Obedience to one's father is optional? The son is equal to the father? It might just as easily been the father that became obedient to the son? In what way is the father greater than the son?
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
godrulz said:
Hebrews 1:3 This is an affirmation of His Deity and equality with the Father. As the spotless Lamb of God, He takes away sins of the world. He provides purification for our sins, not for His own sins (He is holy/sinless).
He is a substitute for the penalty of sin (death). We are sinners, condemned (Rom. 1-3). He is not a sinner, but the Savior (Hebrews/Romans 4; 5).
"Purification" was done first for the sins of the priest, BEFORE they entered into their intercession. So Jesus;
Heb 7:
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: ***for this he did once, when he offered up himself***.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated [made perferct] for evermore.
Jesus made purification for his own sins, then, having been consecrated and freed from death he was able to enter into his intercessory role:
Heb 9:
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, ***not without blood, which he offered for himself***, and for the errors of the people:
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not ***make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience***;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, ***but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption*** for us [the words "for us" are specious additions].
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit [breath - by the virtue of an endless life] offered himself [to serve as priest] without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Jesus died to sin, became free from death, was resurrected, became perfect and presented himself to serve as a priest to the god, and ever lives in order to make intercession.
You try to bend the text to fit your preconceived notions. Not good. It says he died to sin. It explains why this was necessary, per the pattern and the qualifications of the priesthood. I realize that this is not the Catholic/Protestant/Trinitarian dogma but so be it.
So tell me...where is the god? Where is Jesus?
