God_Is_Truth
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Philetus said:
A fantastic book :up:
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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A fantastic book :up:
Philetus
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Who are you to assume the Holy Spirit is not active when the Word is heard and rejected? The Holy Spirit doesn’t CAUSE (or make) anyone respond in the since that you continually use the word CAUSE. The Holy Spirit persuades and inspires. Anyone with free will can resist.RobE said:
If you don't get that by now then you have just refused the work of the Holy Spirit to stir you to believe the truth.
Rob, you have made it clear that you believe that Faith is a cause and no one can resist the Spirit or you are just arguing for argument's sake. It is time for you to drop it here or go start your own thread. It has been interesting.
No middle ground.
Philetus
Philetus
New member
godrulz said:
Thanks godrulz, I'll track the links down tomorrow.
Next on my reading stack is Boyd's The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power is Destroying the Church. I've only glanced at this one but it looks to be even more controversal than "Risk". We will see.
Thanks again.
Philetus
Philetus
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RobE said:
NO! Sufficient Grace is the key! And Grace is always sufficient! God doesn’t have to measure out Grace in pints and quarts anymore than the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on ALL flesh had to be rationed. DUH? Oh, God, don’t give me more grace than I can handle! :nono: Where sin increases … ‘pour on the grace Lord’. Foreknowledge of one’s future response doesn’t exist. It is an unknown contingency. That is the Open View. There is nothing to know in advance except that IF the response is affirming of the Truth about God, the outcome will be favorable. IF not then it is curtains and no resurrection to life eternal. Everything else just, well, complicates the heck out of the gospel.
NO SEQUEL.
THE END
Philetus
CREDITS: ROB. If you hadn't qualified your "official position" with 'foreknowledge is the key" I could have repped you instead of ripped you. :chuckle: And I hate to admit it but if God not pushing his Grace to far (to the point of making it 'irresistible') were tweaked a little you might have an argument. Because the moment grace becomes irresistible (coercive) it is no longer Grace. And you will never convince me that grace is insufficient for some is Biblical. It has been fun. :dead:
RobE
New member
Wow! Do you ever read your own posts? I just need to ask where did you get the idea that I said that Grace was irresistible? I'll post my comment here once more.....
My position would say that through the use of foreknowledge God would know what level of grace would be sufficient for each individual. What level of Grace would be sufficient you is different than the amount of Grace that I would require since we have individual personalities. That same Grace would have to not overwhelm us in order for us to remain 'free'. That precise balance is where justice is reached. Too little and we didn't have a 'fair' chance and too much we didn't 'freely' choose. Foreknowledge of the effects of Grace are neccessary to retain justice in my way of thinking. Foreknowledge of our eventual reprobation is countered by 'God gave us enough'; and foreknowledge of our eventual glorification is countered by 'God didn't force us'. This exact balance leaves us with responsibility. It requires an understanding of all influences and counterbalances whithin creation to obtain. Foreknowledge is the key.
Now the comment 'And you will never convince me that grace is insufficient for some is Biblical' comes from where? Have I once said that the Bible says that grace is insufficient for some; or any for that matter? Do you read my posts and try to figure out what I'm saying or is it just an ongoing tirade of 'Rob,you don't understand the o.v.'? BTW, have you read the opening post of this thread?
Phil said:
Why? Is this your thread? It is pertinent to the discussion beCAUSE grace, faith, and free will are inexorably tied together. Open Theism says that free will is the key to faith which CAUSES one to accept the grace of God.
As far as your statement 'Rob, you have made it clear that you believe that Faith is a cause' (which is true according to both of our positions); and the second part '....and no one can resist the Spirit' (which I never said) shows me that you don't in fact; read, think about, or respond to my statements. And you had the guts to accuse me of being in a box. :angel:
Thanks for not listening,
Rob
p.s. Who cares about getting repped? I'm not a child. I spent 8 years in college, 2 years in seminary, and spent the last twenty years serving; and you expect me to be concerned whether some juvenile in Podunk, Idaho; who isn't able to comprehend basic algebra, likes what I have to say and wants to give me a warm 'fuzzy'. :dizzy:
You Gotta Be Kidding.
RobE
New member
godrulz said:
Well I was responding to your previous post.
Matt. 13:18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Luke 8:11"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Why is it true that the ground wasn't prepared prior to the sowing in all instances?
Transitioning back to my own position,
Rob
Grace
Grace
Hey, I knew a girl named Grace once - and she was irresistable!
But when it comes to theology, "grace" is a word that has been ruined by misuse and should be stricken from people's bibles, like the words "heaven" and "spirit" and "Hell" and "testament" and a host of others.
The underlying word just means "favor" or "approval" or perhaps sometimes "as a favor" or "in undeserved kindness." Grace is not a force, let alone an irresistable force.
This position of favor is the corrolary of faith:
Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Grace
Hey, I knew a girl named Grace once - and she was irresistable!
But when it comes to theology, "grace" is a word that has been ruined by misuse and should be stricken from people's bibles, like the words "heaven" and "spirit" and "Hell" and "testament" and a host of others.
The underlying word just means "favor" or "approval" or perhaps sometimes "as a favor" or "in undeserved kindness." Grace is not a force, let alone an irresistable force.
This position of favor is the corrolary of faith:
Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Philetus said:
Scripture warns about grieving and quenching the Spirit. God's will can be resisted (Lk. 7:30).
If Rob is a free will theist, why is he inconsistently supporting determinism?
Have some rep, my friend.
Can you help me on the "What is time" thread? At least see if Aimiel or myself is making any sense?
1 Thess 5:19
1 Thess 5:19
One does not quench a person:
1 Thess 5:
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
The word "spirit" does not appear in either the Hebrew or Greek texts, since they have no such word in either language. The correct translation in every case should be "breath."
The verses in this section are closely related:
19 Do not supress the [divine] breath.
20 Don't disregard the immediate divine communications through his mouthpieces.
21 Subject all to critical evaluation; that which is good, take to heart.
22 Stay away from every form of evil.
*******
4570 sbennumi sbennumi sben’-noo-mee
a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; TDNT-7:165,1009; v
AV-quench 7, go out 1; 8
1) to extinguish, quench
1a) of fire or things on fire
1a1) to be quenched, to go out
1b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1b1) of divine influence
*******
1 Thess 5:19
One does not quench a person:
1 Thess 5:
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
The word "spirit" does not appear in either the Hebrew or Greek texts, since they have no such word in either language. The correct translation in every case should be "breath."
The verses in this section are closely related:
19 Do not supress the [divine] breath.
20 Don't disregard the immediate divine communications through his mouthpieces.
21 Subject all to critical evaluation; that which is good, take to heart.
22 Stay away from every form of evil.
*******
4570 sbennumi sbennumi sben’-noo-mee
a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; TDNT-7:165,1009; v
AV-quench 7, go out 1; 8
1) to extinguish, quench
1a) of fire or things on fire
1a1) to be quenched, to go out
1b) metaph. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1b1) of divine influence
*******
Grieving
Grieving
On principle I do not identify with any denomination. Paul says to reject this practice and its practicers as carnal.
While people can grieve, it is also proper to speak of a part of you grieving, as here in Lamentations 1:22 in the LXX:
22 THAU. Let all their wickedness come before thy face; and strip them, as they have made a gleaning for all my sins: for my groans are many, and **my heart is grieved**.
22 eiselyoi pasa h kakia autwn kata proswpon sou kai epifullison autoiv on tropon epoihsan epifullida peri pantwn twn amarthmatwn mou oti polloi oi stenagmoi mou kai **h kardia mou lupeitai**
It is the same verb. Like the "heart" (the scriptures have lousy anatomy) the breath is considered to be intelligent (the scriptures have lousy anatomy).
Now note that the text is clearly speaking of the god's breath, not "God, the Holy Spirit."
KJV
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit ***of God***, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Notice also that "holy" is not capitalized in this instance, even in the KJV. That is because in the Greek, the words used are not in the ascriptive order as they often appear but rather in the restrictive order. Here is an excerpt from a Greek grammar that explains the difference:
**********************
The Ascriptive Use of the Attribute Adjective: For example Luke 6:45 says, "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good." Here the order of the Greek words is 'article', 'adjective', 'noun'.
The Restrictive Use of the Attribute Adjective: For example John 10:11 Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd". In Greek, the word order is "I am the shepherd the good", that is 'article', 'noun', 'article', 'adjective'. This is the second way the attributive adjective can be formed. The noun 'shepherd' is being modified by the adjective 'good'. Notice that 'good' still comes after the second definite article which modifies this noun. This position helps to emphasis the quality of "good" as if to say that not all shepherds are good. It could be translated, "I am the shepherd, that is, the good one (as opposed to the others who are not good)".
From http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/adjectiv.htm
**********************
In other words, this is so obviously not a name or title that even the KJV translators, as Trinitarian as they were, were compelled to forbid reading this as some kind of name or title.
In the primitive world of the bible they did not understand anatomy. They attibuted the intellectual functions to various organs.
* thinking was the function of the heart
* motives were hidden in the kidneys ("reins")
* self awareness and communication was in the breath
* sin dwelled in the the meat ("the flesh')
So it is not surprising to see the breath responsible for various intelligent functions in scripture.
There is not even a single assertion in the scripture that the god is three, nor that either Jesus or "the Holy Spirit" are "god."
Grieving
godrulz said:
On principle I do not identify with any denomination. Paul says to reject this practice and its practicers as carnal.
While people can grieve, it is also proper to speak of a part of you grieving, as here in Lamentations 1:22 in the LXX:
22 THAU. Let all their wickedness come before thy face; and strip them, as they have made a gleaning for all my sins: for my groans are many, and **my heart is grieved**.
22 eiselyoi pasa h kakia autwn kata proswpon sou kai epifullison autoiv on tropon epoihsan epifullida peri pantwn twn amarthmatwn mou oti polloi oi stenagmoi mou kai **h kardia mou lupeitai**
It is the same verb. Like the "heart" (the scriptures have lousy anatomy) the breath is considered to be intelligent (the scriptures have lousy anatomy).
Now note that the text is clearly speaking of the god's breath, not "God, the Holy Spirit."
KJV
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit ***of God***, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Notice also that "holy" is not capitalized in this instance, even in the KJV. That is because in the Greek, the words used are not in the ascriptive order as they often appear but rather in the restrictive order. Here is an excerpt from a Greek grammar that explains the difference:
**********************
The Ascriptive Use of the Attribute Adjective: For example Luke 6:45 says, "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good." Here the order of the Greek words is 'article', 'adjective', 'noun'.
The Restrictive Use of the Attribute Adjective: For example John 10:11 Jesus says, "I am the good shepherd". In Greek, the word order is "I am the shepherd the good", that is 'article', 'noun', 'article', 'adjective'. This is the second way the attributive adjective can be formed. The noun 'shepherd' is being modified by the adjective 'good'. Notice that 'good' still comes after the second definite article which modifies this noun. This position helps to emphasis the quality of "good" as if to say that not all shepherds are good. It could be translated, "I am the shepherd, that is, the good one (as opposed to the others who are not good)".
From http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/adjectiv.htm
**********************
In other words, this is so obviously not a name or title that even the KJV translators, as Trinitarian as they were, were compelled to forbid reading this as some kind of name or title.
In the primitive world of the bible they did not understand anatomy. They attibuted the intellectual functions to various organs.
* thinking was the function of the heart
* motives were hidden in the kidneys ("reins")
* self awareness and communication was in the breath
* sin dwelled in the the meat ("the flesh')
So it is not surprising to see the breath responsible for various intelligent functions in scripture.
There is not even a single assertion in the scripture that the god is three, nor that either Jesus or "the Holy Spirit" are "god."
Philetus
New member
godrulz said:
Thanks, godrulz. Much learning has a tendency to make us mad. (in more ways than one.)
I'll take another look. I went there eairler and was tempted to jump in. I'm not sure I will be much help. Is there anyone over there you want me to make mad? :chuckle: :noway: :shut:
Grace, Peace and Longsuffering,
Philetus
patman
Active member
Interesting
Interesting
If I were to guess why, I would say "freewill"
If God prepared the land it would all be forced to take the seed wether it wanted to or not. God offers the seed to all, but doesn't foreordain any to be saved, but only those who choose to be the good ground.
Interesting
RobE said:
If I were to guess why, I would say "freewill"
If God prepared the land it would all be forced to take the seed wether it wanted to or not. God offers the seed to all, but doesn't foreordain any to be saved, but only those who choose to be the good ground.
Philetus
New member
Dear John letter
Rob,
You need to know that I have given much thought to what I’m about to post. I have no anger or ill feelings toward you nor am I offended by your rant. Still you haven't gotten your facts right .... again. Good advice for you might be: don't fly off the handle when you are full of bologna.
Your reputation seems to be very important to you, otherwise why would you list your accomplishments as you did? Not the little green numbers, that other one. Like Paul, I’m reluctant to join in your boasting but if we are going to boast in the flesh then okeedookee. I finished college in four years, and probably already have at least two more degrees than you. I also have you out numbered nearly two to one in years of service. I had a double major in math in high school and am scheduled to finish my DMin next year. But, all that is absolutely nothing to me compared to knowing Christ in the power of His resurrection and participating in the Openness of God -- *sharing in his suffering and looking forward to the resurrection from the dead. I wouldn’t give you a warm ‘fuzzy’.That wouldn't be Christ like of me. First your thinking is to fuzzy already and second if your brain got any warmer it would melt.
And by the way, I’m in Indiana and you may not be a child but you are a punk. Get the chip off your shoulder and stick it back in your head where it belongs.It might stop the leak. And if I were you I would be a little more careful about giving people a piece of your mind. You are in danger of running out soon.
Just speaking the truth in love: you are now on ignore. :shut:
Sorry to have troubled and offended you, my young opponent
Philetus
sentientsynth
New member
Knight,
Isn't beerf what happens when one indulges oneself too much in the keg and barbeque?
Usually, the beerf is over there...behind the tree.
Isn't beerf what happens when one indulges oneself too much in the keg and barbeque?
Usually, the beerf is over there...behind the tree.
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