ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[RobE]

Salvation, not faith, is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-10).

God convinces and convicts. Being in the image of God, we have the ability to receive or reject Him (free will). Total depravity is not total inability.

Faith involves knowledge, mental assent, trust, obedience, and love. We have the capacity to respond to truth, procastinate, or rebel (see Acts when Paul preached the Gospel).

As we draw near to God, He will draw near to us. Faith involves the will and intellect. God's influence and drawing are not causative, but persuasive. As we take a step of child-like faith, God can help our faith grow. He says to make every effort to add to our faith, etc. (Peter character qualities).

In the TULIP mindset, faith is a causative gift, leading to regeneration, perseverance, limited atonement, irresistible grace, etc. This is not biblical.

Repentant faith is a believer's response to the work of the Spirit leading to salvation, the gift of God freely offered to all who believe.

The 'gift of faith' in Corinthians is not saving faith. It is in the context of spiritual gifts and would be a supernatural gift to believe for healings, miracles, etc.

Are you sure you are not a closet Calvinist or a confused Arminian? :jump:

First of all, I'm arguing the Calvinist position as I pointed out that this series of questions was doing a few posts ago. I don't hold them. However, the question of the 'source' of faith is relevant to us all.

Secondly, you didn't answer my question or you answered it in a way that I don't understand.

My question again....This doesn't explain what gives you the ability to 'subjectively' appropriate it. What is the source of your faith?​

Maybe I just need clarification,
Rob

 

[RobE]

Rob,

Is the first quote your understanding of OPEN THEISM?

Grace requires absolutely NO conditions otherwise it isn't grace. God is love and loves unconditionally. Jesus died for everyone. That gift is totally sufficient!

Faith requires hearing and responding. As a gift requiring NO response, faith without action is dead.

The future remains open until 'every creature' has an opportunity to hear and respond to the WORD and God determins that it's time to close the 'window of opportunity' to exercise faith. "Will the Son of Man find faith on the earth when he returns?"

Go therefore!
Philetus​

Please read my post to Godrulz before you read this one.

Your question - Is the first quote your understanding of OPEN THEISM?
My answer - No, it has nothing to do with my understanding of Open Theism. Why would you think so?

My last post is still awaiting your response.

Saying grace isn't the same as faith is semantically correct since faith is a different gift from God than the gift of salvation. It's like saying.....

An apple is a fruit, an orange is a fruit, but oranges aren't apples.
Faith is a gift, Salvation is a Gift, but faith isn't salvation.

However, to say that faith isn't a gift is a different story.

Where does your faith originate from?​

thanks,
Rob

 

[Philetus]

Quote:
This doesn't answer why God's grace seems to be insufficient for some. Also Grace which is defined as a gift would require no conditions otherwise it isn't a gift, but is earned through appropriate action. How do you account for this?

CalRob, still role-playing the advocate

QUOTE: Rob: Your question - Is the first quote your understanding of OPEN THEISM? My answer - No, it has nothing to do with my understanding of Open Theism. Why would you think so?

Because, this thread is about OPEN THEISM. If the above isn’t your view or understanding of OPEN THEISM, then what is it?

QUOTE: Rob, Please read my post to Godrulz before you read this one.

OK, I did. I think it would be best if you argued your own position and stop "role playing' it makes you sound confused. Just my opinion, but it might make it easier to follow you.

QUOTE: Rob: My last post is still awaiting your response.
Saying grace isn't the same as faith is semantically correct since faith is a different gift from God than the gift of salvation. It's like saying.....

An apple is a fruit, an orange is a fruit, but oranges aren't apples.
Faith is a gift, Salvation is a Gift, but faith isn't salvation.

However, to say that faith isn't a gift is a different story.

Where does your faith originate from?

thanks,
Rob

This was my answer PLUS: Grace is a gift and salvation is also a gift but grace is not salvation nor is it the same as faith.

PHILETUS
Grace requires absolutely NO conditions otherwise it isn't grace. God is love and loves unconditionally. Jesus died for everyone. That gift OF GRACE is totally sufficient! WHETHER IT SEEMS INSUFFICENT OR NOT.

Faith requires hearing and responding. As a gift requiring NO response, faith without action is dead.

The future remains open until 'every creature' has an opportunity to hear and respond to the WORD and God determines that it's time to close the 'window of opportunity' to exercise faith. "Will the Son of Man find faith on the earth when he returns?"

Go therefore!
Philetus


Every human has the innate ability (God given in that we are created in his image) to believe. The Word of God stirs up that innate ability to believe; activates faith unto salvation and in some cases redirects misdirected faith. WE can increase, build up, supplement, stir-up, strengthen and foster our faith (etc.) through virtues and obedience. On the other hand we can make shipwreck of our faith, or even have misdirected faith in the wrong things. We can even refuse to believe what we hear. The capacity we have to believe is there. It’s how we are wired (or created.) The question is what are you going to fill it with? The Word of God fills it with faith to believe God. The world wants to fill it with other stuff and replace God. Gotta choose what youre goina listen to and what you will do about what you hear.

AND: WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM?

I was created with the capacity to have faith in God: to believe His Word or not believe it. I have complete freedom to believe in God, myself or anything I want to believe in. I can believe in Buddha or Mohamed or Jesus; the big bang or nothing at all or even try to believe in everything at once. My faith is mine. When I hear the Word the Spirit speaks to my spirit and I choose to believe it. I choose not to believe everything I hear about it. Faith is part of being human. And thank God for the Holy Spirit who is the only ADVOCATE we need to help us sort it all out and believe the Truth about God.

Capacity to believe and freely exercise our faith as we see fit is an essential characteristic that distinguishes humans from the rest of creation. At the fall the capacity to have faith in God did not disappear. A choice was made to believe (put faith in) the lie about God. The Word is the truth about God, so the moment we hear the Word we are confronted with a choice to believe it and place our faith in God or continue in 'unbelief' which is to believe the lie. Taking God at His Word is the same issue now that it was before the fall. “Did God mean what He said, ‘you will die?” Does God mean what he says, “Whosoever believes, has faith in the Son, will live." The Spirit stirs to life that faith once again and we 'live by faith'. There is really no such thing as an “unbeliever”. There are only those who believe in Jesus and those who believe in other things or believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.

THE SHORT ANSWER: I was born with faith, and I was born again by grace through Faith in Jesus.

I was born with a child like faith to believe the nipple was the way to milk. It was! Since then I have placed my faith in a lot of things that were not as satisfying and in some things that were flat out lies. But thank God that by grace, I was born again with child like faith to believe that Jesus is the way to the Father. He is!

In the since that you describe a gift … everything is a gift: apples, oranges, faith, grace, and salvation. Some gifts you can mess with and others you can't. You can make apple sauce and orange juice. But you can’t make apple sauce from oranges. You can have faith in Jesus or have faith in Buddha, but faith in Buddha won’t save you. You can accept salvation or reject it. But, there is absolutely nothing you can do about God’s Grace. God decided to give you everything you need to have a right relationship with Him. You decide to accept the gifts given in grace or not to. If you reject them it won't deminish God' GRACE in the least bit.

Believe it or not, the future is open! And what or who I put my faith in will determin where I spend it.
I’m done :grave:
Really trying.
Philetus
​

 

[Delmar]

I believe that the phrase "faith is a gift" , at lest in the context that a determinist uses it, is a distortion of the truth.

 

[godrulz]

I believe that the phrase "faith is a gift" , at lest in the context that a determinist uses it, is a distortion of the truth.

For God to give some (elect) faith as a gift, but withhold it from others (so called non-elect) that He could give it to if He wanted to, makes His love and atonement limited and arbitrary. Faith is a manward response (using our God-given wills and intellects) to the truth of God as given by the ministry of the Spirit. Likewise, the antithesis, unbelief, involves our wills and minds. This is why we are responsible if we reject truth and light in order to love darkness (Jn. 1; 3; I Jn.).

 

[RobE]

To Godrulz, Philetus, and others

To Godrulz, Philetus, and others

Godrulz,
You still haven't adressed the question, but I'll assume that Philetus is answering it for you.

Salvation, not faith, is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-10).

Then where does your ability to believe originate from, Godrulz?

____________________________________________

This was my answer PLUS: Grace is a gift and salvation is also a gift but grace is not salvation nor is it the same as faith.

What exactly is Grace, Philetus?

AND: WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM?

I was created with the capacity to have faith in God: to believe His Word or not believe it. I have complete freedom to believe in God, myself or anything I want to believe in. I can believe in Buddha or Mohamed or Jesus; the big bang or nothing at all or even try to believe in everything at once. My faith is mine. When I hear the Word the Spirit speaks to my spirit and I choose to believe it. I choose not to believe everything I hear about it. Faith is part of being human. And thank God for the Holy Spirit who is the only ADVOCATE we need to help us sort it all out and believe the Truth about God.

Capacity to believe and freely exercise our faith as we see fit is an essential characteristic that distinguishes humans from the rest of creation. At the fall the capacity to have faith in God did not disappear. A choice was made to believe (put faith in) the lie about God. The Word is the truth about God, so the moment we hear the Word we are confronted with a choice to believe it and place our faith in God or continue in 'unbelief' which is to believe the lie. Taking God at His Word is the same issue now that it was before the fall. “Did God mean what He said, ‘you will die?” Does God mean what he says, “Whosoever believes, has faith in the Son, will live." The Spirit stirs to life that faith once again and we 'live by faith'. There is really no such thing as an “unbeliever”. There are only those who believe in Jesus and those who believe in other things or believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.​

THE SHORT ANSWER: I was born with faith, and I was born again by grace through Faith in Jesus.

I was born with a child like faith to believe the nipple was the way to milk. It was! Since then I have placed my faith in a lot of things that were not as satisfying and in some things that were flat out lies. But thank God that by grace, I was born again with child like faith to believe that Jesus is the way to the Father. He is!

In the since that you describe a gift … everything is a gift: apples, oranges, faith, grace, and salvation. Some gifts you can mess with and others you can't. You can make apple sauce and orange juice. But you can’t make apple sauce from oranges. You can have faith in Jesus or have faith in Buddha, but faith in Buddha won’t save you. You can accept salvation or reject it. But, there is absolutely nothing you can do about God’s Grace. God decided to give you everything you need to have a right relationship with Him. You decide to accept the gifts given in grace or not to. If you reject them it won't deminish God' GRACE in the least bit.

Believe it or not, the future is open! And what or who I put my faith in will determin where I spend it.
I’m done :grave:
Really trying.
Philetus​

I left your entire post here so I wouldn't be accused of taking anything out of context. As I understand it you say that:

1. God created you with the capacity.
2. The Holy Spirit stirs your faith to life.
3. 'by Grace, I was born again with child like faith to believe that Jesus is the way to the Father'

If I apply the same standards to someone who isn't coming to saving faith then I must say that either....
1. God didn't create them with the capacity
or
2. The Holy Spirit didn't stir their faith to life
or
3. Grace didn't rejuvenate them.

Now, don't get angry if this isn't what you meant. I just want to narrow down exactly what you're saying. The interaction of faith and grace is complex and creates dilemnas as I stated earlier. It isn't an easy subject by any means.

Really trying to reason it out with both of you,
Rob

 

[RobE]

I believe that the phrase "faith is a gift" , at lest in the context that a determinist uses it, is a distortion of the truth.

Where does the distortion lie?
Rob

 

[godrulz]

I have answered you over and over. You just do not like the answer. Faith comes from the individual. Being in the image of God and created as free moral agents, we are able to receive or reject truth/THE TRUTH (Jesus). It involves the will and intellect. It is a response to the light, love, convincing, convicting of the Spirit. Faith vs unbelief are within our capability (Jn. 3:16, 36).

Your agenda does not allow you to see the forest for the trees. Cause-effect applies to rocks (inanimate). Love, freedom, faith, volition, etc. applies to moral creation/man. Get over your cause-effect assumptions and you will be able to think outside your self-imposed box.

 

[godrulz]

Where does the distortion lie?
Rob

The Bible does not talk about saving faith as a gift. Salvation is the gift of God (Greek grammar in Eph. 2:8, 9). The gift of faith in the Corinthian context is a spiritual gift not related to salvation, but to empowerment subsequent to salvation.

The distortion is in sound exegesis, especially context and grammar.

 

[RobE]

My question again....This doesn't explain what gives you the ability to 'subjectively' appropriate it. What is the source of your faith?

I have answered you over and over. You just do not like the answer. Faith comes from the individual. Being in the image of God and created as free moral agents, we are able to receive or reject truth/THE TRUTH (Jesus). It involves the will and intellect. It is a response to the light, love, convincing, convicting of the Spirit. Faith vs unbelief are within our capability (Jn. 3:16, 36).

Well, you have answered many times that God is the source of our faith just as you did here when you pointed out that God created us with intellect and will; and, in the same statement said that faith comes from the individual exclusively through the individual's intellect and will.

If I must I will follow the line of thinking backwards by asking you where did your intellect and will originate from? You already answered this.

And this, my friend, brings us back to the question of why aren't some people's intellect and will able to come to a saving faith when that is God's desire for them unless their abilities were in fact insufficient?

Your agenda does not allow you to see the forest for the trees. Cause-effect applies to rocks (inanimate). Love, freedom, faith, volition, etc. applies to moral creation/man. Get over your cause-effect assumptions and you will be able to think outside your self-imposed box.

Yet you believe that your faith(cause) secures your ultimate salvation(effect). Cause and effect permeates your arguments and rightly so; since it is how things occur. Please don't at this time try to defeat my arguments by trying to make them sound like opinions; when clearly they are not. If cause and effect is untrue then grace, faith, salvation, and anything else you might think of has no meaning. The universe isn't random in its nature which you are well aware of. If cause and effect are not true in the spiritual realm then what effect are you trying to secure with your faith? We are both aware of what effect our faith causes.

Rob

 

[RobE]

The Bible does not talk about saving faith as a gift. Salvation is the gift of God (Greek grammar in Eph. 2:8, 9). The gift of faith in the Corinthian context is a spiritual gift not related to salvation, but to empowerment subsequent to salvation.

The distortion is in sound exegesis, especially context and grammar.

My question here is: If faith comes about subsequent to salvation, how is it a condition of salvation?

Rob

 

[Philetus]

Godrulz,
You still haven't adressed the question, but I'll assume that Philetus is answering it for you.



Then where does your ability to believe originate from, Godrulz?

____________________________________________


What exactly is Grace, Philetus? NEW QUESTION. ROB?

AND: WHERE DOES FAITH COME FROM?

I was created with the capacity to have faith in God: to believe His Word or not believe it. I have complete freedom to believe in God, myself or anything I want to believe in. I can believe in Buddha or Mohamed or Jesus; the big bang or nothing at all or even try to believe in everything at once. My faith is mine. When I hear the Word the Spirit speaks to my spirit and I choose to believe it. I choose not to believe everything I hear about it. Faith is part of being human. And thank God for the Holy Spirit who is the only ADVOCATE we need to help us sort it all out and believe the Truth about God.

Capacity to believe and freely exercise our faith as we see fit is an essential characteristic that distinguishes humans from the rest of creation. At the fall the capacity to have faith in God did not disappear. A choice was made to believe (put faith in) the lie about God. The Word is the truth about God, so the moment we hear the Word we are confronted with a choice to believe it and place our faith in God or continue in 'unbelief' which is to believe the lie. Taking God at His Word is the same issue now that it was before the fall. “Did God mean what He said, ‘you will die?” Does God mean what he says, “Whosoever believes, has faith in the Son, will live." The Spirit stirs to life that faith once again and we 'live by faith'. There is really no such thing as an “unbeliever”. There are only those who believe in Jesus and those who believe in other things or believe that Jesus isn't the Son of God.​

THE SHORT ANSWER: I was born with faith, and I was born again by grace through Faith in Jesus.

I was born with a child like faith to believe the nipple was the way to milk. It was! Since then I have placed my faith in a lot of things that were not as satisfying and in some things that were flat out lies. But thank God that by grace, I was born again with child like faith to believe that Jesus is the way to the Father. He is!

In the since that you describe a gift … everything is a gift: apples, oranges, faith, grace, and salvation. Some gifts you can mess with and others you can't. You can make apple sauce and orange juice. But you can’t make apple sauce from oranges. You can have faith in Jesus or have faith in Buddha, but faith in Buddha won’t save you. You can accept salvation or reject it. But, there is absolutely nothing you can do about God’s Grace. God decided to give you everything you need to have a right relationship with Him. You decide to accept the gifts given in grace or not to. If you reject them it won't deminish God' GRACE in the least bit.

Believe it or not, the future is open! And what or who I put my faith in will determin where I spend it.
I’m done :grave:
Really trying.
Philetus​

I left your entire post here so I wouldn't be accused of taking anything out of context. As I understand it you say that:

1. God created you with the capacity.
2. The Holy Spirit stirs your faith to life.
3. 'by Grace, I was born again with child like faith to believe that Jesus is the way to the Father'

If I apply the same standards to someone who isn't coming to saving faith then I must say that either....
1. God didn't create them with the capacity
or
2. The Holy Spirit didn't stir their faith to life
or
3. Grace didn't rejuvenate them.

Now, don't get angry if this isn't what you meant. I just want to narrow down exactly what you're saying. The interaction of faith and grace is complex and creates dilemnas as I stated earlier. It isn't an easy subject by any means.

Really trying to reason it out with both of you,
Rob

Rob,
Why would I be angry? You didn't put words in my mouth and then call me a dunce. :dunce: You simply have not understood my post.
1. God created everyone with the capacity to believe in what ever they want to believe. You’re still over looking ‘choice’ which is the kingpin in Open View Theism.
2. The Holy Spirit uses the Word (hearing the truth) to stir my spirit and cause me to respond to the Truth about God.
3. I was NOT born with a faith in Jesus. I was born in sin (unbelief in Jesus) into a fallen world with a capacity to believe in daisies or anything else I choose. The Word and the Holy Spirit inspired, stirred up, and helped me redirect my faith and believe in Jesus, the Way. I was born again.

It is easier than you make it. You create the dilemmas by role playing the advocate.

Applying the same standards requires that you not misconstrue the statements. Your three (re)statements are not in the least accurate in the Open View. Are they views you hold?
Those who fail to respond to the word and the Spirit simply resisted to their own demise. They place their faith in the wrong things by choosing to believe the LIE. They need to hear the Word and the Spirit. All three of your (re)statements (1,2,3) assumes that for us to take the God given responsibility for choosing Christ makes us the first cause of our salvation. Get back to me when you understand Grace and Faith in the context of OVT. Or open a new thread to discuss “Rob’s view.” Cause if we keep this up every post will soon become a numberd page in itself. :crackup:

Have you received the Spirit since you believed? :idea:
Philetus
​

 

[godrulz]

My question here is: If faith comes about subsequent to salvation, how is it a condition of salvation?

Rob

This is a Calvinistic error (faith subsequent). Repentant faith PRECEDES regeneration (it is a condition). In Calvinism, regeneration precedes the gift of faith and is causative. Our faith grows as we gain more knowledge subsequent to salvation, but the mustard seed of faith is sufficient for God to invade our lives.

Open Theism and Arminianism are both free will theisms. I thought Rob was Arminian, so why is he arguing for Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism? If he is role playing, perhaps it is time to stop playing games and defend a biblical view instead of the other guy's errors.

 

[Philetus]

This is a Calvinistic error (faith subsequent). Repentant faith PRECEDES regeneration (it is a condition). In Calvinism, regeneration precedes the gift of faith and is causative. Our faith grows as we gain more knowledge subsequent to salvation, but the mustard seed of faith is sufficient for God to invade our lives.

Open Theism and Arminianism are both free will theisms. I thought Rob was Arminian, so why is he arguing for Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism? If he is role playing, perhaps it is time to stop playing games and defend a biblical view instead of the other guy's errors.

:thumb:
Godrulz,
Once again! Why can't I say that as succinctly as you? It must be my southern drawl and my newness to OVT. I would love to talk about Open Theism! Maybe this has become Rob’s View Thread. Should we start one on the original topic? Or how about Boyd's book "Repenting From Religion". I'm on my second read ... WOW ... talk about the love of God. Have you read it?

Philetus

Philetus​

 

[godrulz]

:thumb:
Godrulz,
Once again! Why can't I say that as succinctly as you? It must be my southern drawl and my newness to OVT. I would love to talk about Open Theism! Maybe this has become Rob’s View Thread. Should we start one on the original topic? Or how about Boyd's book "Repenting From Religion". I'm on my second read ... WOW ... talk about the love of God. Have you read it?

Philetus

Philetus​

Did not even hear of 'Repenting from Religion'.

Mixed reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801065062/104-1002139-6998323?v=glance&n=283155

I think the principles in my post were as much Arminian as anything. A book on debating Calvinism brings up these differences (Hunt is not an Open Theist).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590522737/104-1002139-6998323?v=glance&n=283155

Likewise, Olson does a good exegetical job, also from a non- Open Theist:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0962485047/104-1002139-6998323?v=glance&n=283155

 

[RobE]

2. The Holy Spirit uses the Word (hearing the truth) to stir my spirit and cause me to respond to the Truth about God.

And the question....

Why didn't the Holy Spirit use the Word to stir the reprobates spirit and CAUSE him to respond to the truth?

Again I ask,
Rob

 

[godrulz]

And the question....

Why didn't the Holy Spirit use the Word to stir the reprobates spirit and CAUSE him to respond to the truth?

Again I ask,
Rob

Love relationships are neither caused nor coerced. They are freely entered into and maintained. You need a biblical, relational theism instead of causative, godless philosophies.

Read Acts 17:32-34 and Parable of sower/seeds...The issue is man's heart, not God's lack of ability or intention.

 

[RobE]

This is a Calvinistic error (faith subsequent). Repentant faith PRECEDES regeneration (it is a condition). In Calvinism, regeneration precedes the gift of faith and is causative. Our faith grows as we gain more knowledge subsequent to salvation, but the mustard seed of faith is sufficient for God to invade our lives.

Open Theism and Arminianism are both free will theisms. I thought Rob was Arminian, so why is he arguing for Calvinism/determinism/compatibilism? If he is role playing, perhaps it is time to stop playing games and defend a biblical view instead of the other guy's errors.

Well actually I was responding to your statement in the last post.....

Godrulz said: The gift of faith in the Corinthian context is a spiritual gift not related to salvation, but to empowerment subsequent to salvation.​

I figured you meant 'prior to salvation' which would be less Calvinistic, but it isn't what you said there. That's why I asked for the clarification. Repentant faith has a beginning as well.

Anyway, would you agree with Philetus in saying that....

2. The Holy Spirit uses the Word (hearing the truth) to stir my spirit and cause me to respond to the Truth about God.​

Basically stating that the Holy Spirit is the 'cause' of your response?

Don't get hasty now. I know we've been over a lot of subject matter, but this is important no matter you position.

YBIC,
Rob Mauldin

Again my official position is here.....

My position would say that through the use of foreknowledge God would know what level of grace would be sufficient for each individual. What level of Grace would be sufficient you is different than the amount of Grace that I would require since we have individual personalities. That same Grace would have to not overwhelm us in order for us to remain 'free'. That precise balance is where justice is reached. Too little and we didn't have a 'fair' chance and too much we didn't 'freely' choose. Foreknowledge of the effects of Grace are neccessary to retain justice in my way of thinking. Foreknowledge of our eventual reprobation is countered by God gave us enough and foreknowledge of our eventual glorification is countered by God didn't force us. This exact balance leaves us with responsibility. It requires an understanding of all influences and counterbalances whithin creation to obtain. Foreknowledge is the key.​

 

[RobE]

Love relationships are neither caused nor coerced. They are freely entered into and maintained. You need a biblical, relational theism instead of causative, godless philosophies.

Read Acts 17:32-34 and Parable of sower/seeds...The issue is man's heart, not God's lack of ability or intention.

I agree completely, but what we are discussing here is 'WHY isn't the ground ready?'

Advocating Still,
CalRob

 

[godrulz]

I agree completely, but what we are discussing here is 'WHY isn't the ground ready?'

Advocating Still,
CalRob

Who said it is not? There are many people that would respond in repentant faith if we would get the gospel to them and preach it persuasively with love and authority. Jesus said the harvest is ripe and that we are to go into it and send workers. Those who are willfully blind and blinded by the enemy suppress the truth by their wickedness. Truth has been made plain to them (Romans 1). Individuals are responsible for the light they have. If they reject light and love darkness, further light would only harden and condemn them more. God is not a far off from anyone (Paul preaching re: unknown God).