ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

Grace and the person and work of Christ are the grounds for salvation (reason by which). Repentant faith/continuance in the faith are the conditions of salvation (not without which).

The Godward, objective provision must be subjectively appropriated (manward)= synergism vs monergism. Relationship, love, freedom necessitate the possibility of receiving or rejecting His perfect grace.

 

[Philetus]

A question: How can it be said that A. God wants all men to be saved, B. God gives all men sufficient Grace to be saved, and C. Some men aren't saved.

Get back to me after you understand what Grace is.

Seriously,
Rob

Free will to reject the offer.

Yours and/or God's.

1. Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

2. Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

3. Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Get back to me when you understand faith.

On second thought, don't.

Philetus​

 

[Philetus]

Where in the scripture does it say that God's grace is ever insufficient?
How can GRACE ever be coercive?

Can’t answerer the questions rob?

Philetus, who obviously doesn't even understand the debate, nor does He care to understand the debate, just chimes in 'Oh yeah, I know you are so what am I? To answer Philetus' profound question of 'where in the scriptures does it say His grace is insufficient', it doesn't. It says 'it's sufficient' which is my exact position. 'Why it's sufficient when some will not be saved' is the question though. And a complex question it is; since we would need to ask/answer many difficult question leading up to an answer which removes responsiblity from our Lord. Calvin, who was a notable theologian, never arrived at a satisfactory solution so He cut the knot of the problem and said 'God desires some to be reprobate.' I am unable to accept this position.

Feel free to inquire more if this doesn't answer your question,
Rob

Rob can’t answerer the questions because rob can't believe that God gives him the responsibility to answer the one question on which his future hangs.

You said ask em one at a time. Thanks Robe, but, there's no need for privite messages as you requested. In six months you haven't given one shread of evidence that you understand Open Theism or even care to.

:dunce: You are lost in your own head and seem to enjoy it there. arty:

Ernest is dead. Party on!
Philetus​

Look! Up on the thread. It's a bird ... it's a brain ... NO! ... It's a birdbrain.​

 

[Philetus]

God does want all men to be saved and is not desiring that any perish.

Grace is not irresistible, despite what TULIP (Calvinism) says. That would be a contradiction in terms. The saving and keeping power and grace of the Spirit can be resisted since relationships are not coerced nor caused.

Not all men respond to the convincing and convicting of the Spirit. Some resist God's grace and purposes for them, to their own continued condemnation (love darkness; hate light; suppress truth...Rom. 1).

Some men are not saved due to their ongoing rebellion, not a lack of grace or adequate redemptive provision.

Since you are not a Calvinist, what is the issue or what are your thoughts?

Well said godrulz!​

 

[Philetus]

Giving men grace to be saved doesn't mean it's accepted. Choice. That's what you overlook.

That is plain enough! :up:​

 

[RobE]

Grace and the person and work of Christ are the grounds for salvation (reason by which). Repentant faith/continuance in the faith are the conditions of salvation (not without which).

The Godward, objective provision must be subjectively appropriated (manward)= synergism vs monergism. Relationship, love, freedom necessitate the possibility of receiving or rejecting His perfect grace.

This doesn't answer why God's grace seems to be insufficient for some. Also Grace which is defined as a gift would require no conditions otherwise it isn't a gift, but is earned through appropriate action. How do you account for this?

CalRob, still role-playing the advocate

 

[RobE]

Where in the scripture does it say that God's grace is ever insufficient?

As I answered before, it doesn't.

This still doesn't answer my one question.

How is Grace said to be sufficient.....

1 a : enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end

Synonyms : SUFFICIENT, ENOUGH, ADEQUATE, COMPETENT​

.....if all men won't be saved which is God's desire.

Grace : 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace​

How can GRACE ever be coercive?

Ask Paul.

Can’t answerer the questions rob?

I answered them and you didn't know it.

Rob can’t answerer the questions because rob can't believe that God gives him the responsibility to answer the one question on which his future hangs.

What question is that?

You said ask em one at a time. Thanks Robe, but, there's no need for privite messages as you requested. In six months you haven't given one shread of evidence that you understand Open Theism or even care to.

I probably understand it better than you do, if your defense of it is any indication.

:dunce: You are lost in your own head and seem to enjoy it there. arty:

It's odd that I'm accused of being insulting while you are praised for being funny.

Anyway, I'm sorry that my attempt at keeping the refuse on the thread to a minimum was furtile.

Thanks for your support, arty:
Rob

 

[RobE]

Free will to reject the offer.(Rob asks where did your free will come from?)

Yours and/or God's.

1. Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.

2. Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

3. Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Get back to me when you understand faith.

On second thought, don't.

Philetus​

Your faith comes from 'hearing' which comes from the 'word of God'. Doesn't this make faith itself some form of Grace(gift) from God?

Do you have the ability to talk and not insult?

Maybe we will be able to make more than 2 or three responses to each other which don't make us both look like :baby: in the near future.

Truly Forgiving,
Rob

 

[godrulz]

This doesn't answer why God's grace seems to be insufficient for some. Also Grace which is defined as a gift would require no conditions otherwise it isn't a gift, but is earned through appropriate action. How do you account for this?

CalRob, still role-playing the advocate

Receiving a free gift does not mean one provides it, initiates it, nor earns it. Rejecting the gift does not negate the validity or efficacy of the gift. An objective provision must be subjectively appropriated. This is a response, not a meritorious work.

cf. A doctor has a cure for AIDS. It works on everyone who takes the cure. Some refuse to come to the doctor for the cure. It does not work for them. Those who come are cured. This is not earning the cure nor providing it.

(apply a grace/faith parallel to the analogy)

 

[Philetus]

Matthew 10

1He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.​

Jesus gave Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him, authority to drive out evil spirits.

John 13
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.​

I had never thought of those two scriptures together before.

Judas had the authority to just say no to the devil and didn't?

Philetus
​

 

[Philetus]

Do you have the ability to talk and not insult?

Not with you apparently. If we never laugh at our selves we will never laugh together.

Original quote by Robe: Philetus, who obviously doesn't even understand the debate, nor does He care to understand the debate, just chimes in 'Oh yeah, I know you are so what am I? To answer Philetus' profound question of 'where in the scriptures does it say His grace is insufficient', it doesn't. It says 'it's sufficient' which is my exact position. 'Why it's sufficient when some will not be saved' is the question though. And a complex question it is; since we would need to ask/answer many difficult question leading up to an answer which removes responsiblity from our Lord. Calvin, who was a notable theologian, never arrived at a satisfactory solution so He cut the knot of the problem and said 'God desires some to be reprobate.' I am unable to accept this position.

Feel free to inquire more if this doesn't answer your question,
Rob

But, we did have half a dozen fair exchanges before this.
Moving right along ...


Grace isn't the same thing as faith.

OR to misquote:

Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received faith and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from grace. :nono:

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by grace into this faith in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. :nono:


Ephesians 2:8
For it is by faith you have been saved, through grace—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— :nono:

Sorry Rob but you just can't do that to the Word of God. Otherwise your hearing the Word of God doesn't produce faith, it produces misunderstanding.

Philetus​

 

[Philetus]

Receiving a free gift does not mean one provides it, initiates it, nor earns it. Rejecting the gift does not negate the validity or efficacy of the gift. An objective provision must be subjectively appropriated. This is a response, not a meritorious work.

cf. A doctor has a cure for AIDS. It works on everyone who takes the cure. Some refuse to come to the doctor for the cure. It does not work for them. Those who come are cured. This is not earning the cure nor providing it.

(apply a grace/faith parallel to the analogy)

:thumb:
And as my dad once said, “Having enough paint in the bucket isn't the same as having the barn painted.”

Or, Being given a cure does no good until you take the medicine.

God's grace is sufficient! Got Faith?

Philetus​

 

[RobE]

Receiving a free gift does not mean one provides it, initiates it, nor earns it. Rejecting the gift does not negate the validity or efficacy of the gift. An objective provision must be subjectively appropriated. This is a response, not a meritorious work.

This doesn't explain what gives you the ability to 'subjectively' appropriate it. What is the source of your faith?

Still Advocating,
Rob

 

[RobE]

Not with you apparently. If we never laugh at our selves we will never laugh together.

But, we did have half a dozen fair exchanges before this.
Moving right along ...

Philetus, who obviously doesn't even understand the debate, nor does He care to understand the debate, just chimes in 'Oh yeah, I know you are so what am I? To answer Philetus' profound question of 'where in the scriptures does it say His grace is insufficient', it doesn't. It says 'it's sufficient' which is my exact position. 'Why it's sufficient when some will not be saved' is the question though. And a complex question it is; since we would need to ask/answer many difficult question leading up to an answer which removes responsiblity from our Lord. Calvin, who was a notable theologian, never arrived at a satisfactory solution so He cut the knot of the problem and said 'God desires some to be reprobate.' I am unable to accept this position.

Where in the scripture does it say that God's grace is ever insufficient?

My apologies then. I didn't understand that it was a real question. I thought it was just a non-sequitor. (i.e. Rob : What do you think of Divine Government? Phil : Where does it say Divine Government in the scriptures?)

Anyway, onward and I'll be more careful to take you seriously next time, sorry.

Grace isn't the same thing as faith.

OR to misquote:

Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received faith and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from grace. :nono:

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by grace into this faith in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. :nono:


Ephesians 2:8
For it is by faith you have been saved, through grace—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— :nono:

Sorry Rob but you just can't do that to the Word of God. Otherwise your hearing the Word of God doesn't produce faith, it produces misunderstanding.

Philetus

Saying grace isn't the same as faith is semantically correct since faith is a different gift from God than the gift of salvation. It's like saying.....

An apple is a fruit, an orange is a fruit, but oranges aren't apples.
Faith is a gift, Salvation is a Gift, but faith isn't salvation.

However, to say that faith isn't a gift is a different story. :doh:

Where does your faith originate from?
Rob

 

[RobE]

Matthew 10

1He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.​

Jesus gave Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him, authority to drive out evil spirits.

John 13
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.​

I had never thought of those two scriptures together before.

Judas had the authority to just say no to the devil and didn't?

Philetus
​

'Driving out' and 'being immune from' are different things. It also shows that all things might be accomplished through God's power without man's faith being a factor. And we are able to reject temptation or there is no responsibility.

Good point though,
Rob

 

[godrulz]

This doesn't explain what gives you the ability to 'subjectively' appropriate it. What is the source of your faith?

Still Advocating,
Rob

Salvation, not faith, is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-10).

God convinces and convicts. Being in the image of God, we have the ability to receive or reject Him (free will). Total depravity is not total inability.

Faith involves knowledge, mental assent, trust, obedience, and love. We have the capacity to respond to truth, procastinate, or rebel (see Acts when Paul preached the Gospel).

As we draw near to God, He will draw near to us. Faith involves the will and intellect. God's influence and drawing are not causative, but persuasive. As we take a step of child-like faith, God can help our faith grow. He says to make every effort to add to our faith, etc. (Peter character qualities).

In the TULIP mindset, faith is a causative gift, leading to regeneration, perseverance, limited atonement, irresistible grace, etc. This is not biblical.

Repentant faith is a believer's response to the work of the Spirit leading to salvation, the gift of God freely offered to all who believe.

The 'gift of faith' in Corinthians is not saving faith. It is in the context of spiritual gifts and would be a supernatural gift to believe for healings, miracles, etc.

Are you sure you are not a closet Calvinist or a confused Arminian? :jump:

 

[Philetus]

Your faith comes from 'hearing' which comes from the 'word of God'. Doesn't this make faith itself some form of Grace(gift) from God?

No. Every human has the innate ability (God given in that we are created in his image) to believe. The Word of God stirs up that innate ability to believe; activates faith unto salvation and in some cases redirects misdirected faith. WE can increase, build up, supplement, stir-up, strengthen and foster our faith (etc.) through virtues and obedience. On the other hand we can make shipwreck of our faith, or even have misdirected faith in the wrong things. We can even refuse to believe what we hear. The capacity we have to believe is there. It’s how we are wired (or created.) The question is what are you going to fill it with? The Word of God fills it with faith to believe God. The world wants to fill it with other stuff and replace God. Gotta choose what youre goina listen to and what you will do about what you hear.


As gift, Grace is all God’s doing and informs all our living. It is 100% the gift of God. There is nothing we can do about Grace. It is grace whether we acknowledge it or not. Nothing we can do and NOTHING in creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. That’s grace. It’s there whether you want it or not.


Got Grace! Got faith?
Got ears to hear?
Philetus​

 

[Philetus]

This doesn't answer why God's grace seems to be insufficient for some. Also Grace which is defined as a gift would require no conditions otherwise it isn't a gift, but is earned through appropriate action. How do you account for this?

CalRob, still role-playing the advocate

I probably understand it better than you do, if your defense of it is any indication.

Rob,

Is the first quote your understanding of OPEN THEISM?

Grace requires absolutely NO conditions otherwise it isn't grace. God is love and loves unconditionally. Jesus died for everyone. That gift is totally sufficient!

Faith requires hearing and responding. As a gift requiring NO response, faith without action is dead.

The future remains open until 'every creature' has an opportunity to hear and respond to the WORD and God determins that it's time to close the 'window of opportunity' to exercise faith. "Will the Son of Man find faith on the earth when he returns?"

Go therefore!
Philetus​

 

[Philetus]

Salvation, not faith, is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-10).

God convinces and convicts. Being in the image of God, we have the ability to receive or reject Him (free will). Total depravity is not total inability.

Faith involves knowledge, mental assent, trust, obedience, and love. We have the capacity to respond to truth, procastinate, or rebel (see Acts when Paul preached the Gospel).

As we draw near to God, He will draw near to us. Faith involves the will and intellect. God's influence and drawing are not causative, but persuasive. As we take a step of child-like faith, God can help our faith grow. He says to make every effort to add to our faith, etc. (Peter character qualities).

In the TULIP mindset, faith is a causative gift, leading to regeneration, perseverance, limited atonement, irresistible grace, etc. This is not biblical.

Repentant faith is a believer's response to the work of the Spirit leading to salvation, the gift of God freely offered to all who believe.

The 'gift of faith' in Corinthians is not saving faith. It is in the context of spiritual gifts and would be a supernatural gift to believe for healings, miracles, etc.

That is very helpful, godrulz. You say such good clear stuff.
I hate this "you gotta spread rep around before you can give it to godrulz again."

All my rep to you! :bow:
Philetus​

 

[godrulz]

That is very helpful, godrulz. You say such good clear stuff.
I hate this "you gotta spread rep around before you can give it to godrulz again."

All my rep to you! :bow:
Philetus​

I find you the same way. It is probably because we are in general agreement. I do not resonate well with diametrically opposed views.