ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[RobE]

Nor does it demand it in any way.

Yet, you being the challenger to the Traditional view; it is upon you to disprove it.

As I admitted either God changed Hezekiah's future or God planned to change Hezekiah's future from the beginning. Either way, Hezekiah was headed for death until God intervened. It's on the O.V.'s head to prove that God changed it when it came up with no prior plan to do so.

No such burden of proof exists.
To “change” indicates that it was not part of the original plan. It may have been a backup plan (unlikely since it served no purpose for Hezekiah to live or die - but maybe). Either way fits into the Open model – thus no proof is necessary.

You aren't able to wriggle out of the situation so easily. To use terms such as original plan and backup plan(which require foreknowledge of action) actually defeats your premise that foreknowledge is impossible with free agents. Also in order to change an outcome, the outcome must be foreknown; otherwise, how could you know it changed. This substantiates my position that the O.V. must presuppose foreknowledge in its arguments. 'Foreknowledge based on what?', I would ask and then go on to conclude that it is based on causes and effects within human nature. Your position declares that will is above natural law and isn't effected by anything and thus human will becomes a chaotic quagmire with random unpredictable results.

Ah, but we were talking about a future that is not settled. That, has not "been in the debate since Pelagius". That has almost never been allowed into the debate. Certainly free will has been, but that wasn’t what we were discussing at this point.

Ah, but it is. According to your position free will is eliminated when foreknowledge is present. Pelagius just takes the idea of libertarian free will to its ultimate end which is a place most LFW supporters dare not look upon.

As far as we know, Pelagius did not believe in an open future, he believed in a settled future. His beliefs in Free will were not directly relatable to the teachings of Open Theism save in the way it relates to every Arminian as well.

This certainly is a valid point when relating Pelagianism to foreknowledge, but my point was towards the idea of LFW.

Incidently it was his beliefs in a lack of original sin and the lack of need for infant baptism that made him a heretic.

Actually the doctrine of original sin was developed by St. Augustine to quell the heresy.

No ... I was saying that Christ was the plan *IF* man sinned. If man did not sin man would not have needed a savior in that way.

I read it. You just refuse to see my conclusion correctly. I'll submit the entire discussion between us on this subject here except my excerpts from outside sources......

AJ said: “I think you have built a strawman argument for the Open view because you are unfamiliar with what is being discussed. We do not deny, for instance, that God had a plan to have Jesus save mankind should Adam sin … the disagreement is not that God had a plan for every contingency, but that God did not know which contingency He would need to use.”

RobE responded: “This I vehemently disagree with. I believe Jesus was the Plan for creation, not a fail-safe if man couldn't pull it off himself. This is more like Pelagianism where man is able to save himself. Because after all, if man can fall he can get back up without a saviour.”

AJ: That’s just a wild accusation on your part. That God created a backup plan to have Christ dies on a cross in the case that salvation would be needed, does not suggest that man is able to do so without a savior.

Rob: I don't think so. If Christ was a 'backup' plan then you are saying that man could do so without a 'savior'. What other interpretation is there?​

How does your model hold in the places where Jesus makes a prediction that the Tribulation was going to come in the Apostles lifetime and doesn’t. Why did God's foreknowledge fail Him?

God's foreknowledge doesn't fail Jesus. In fact Jesus points to just this fact......

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

Here's Jesus' own words showing that knowledge of the hour and day was not the Son's even though the Father knew it.

Yours,
Rob

 

[spaz]

What is your point about the first century religious comment?

It is not speculative astrophysics. Why do you think gravity affects time? Because it warps the space-time continuom.

Not really, it just means we can only say so much abut God.

If god is transcendant, then there is only so much we can say about Him. In your own words, what do you mean by immanenet?

 

[godrulz]

Just because most 'Christian' groups claim first century roots or authenticity does not mean that it is true in reality (Peter was not the first pope, BTW).

Theories of relativity are speculative and may apply to physical issues, but we are talking about the eternal God before creation. He is not affected by gravity, but He does experience duration.

God is unlike us in that He is uncreated triune Creator.

He is like us in that He is personal and relational. God became flesh. This is immanence, Immanuel, God with us. He is not an aloof Deity. We live and move and have our being in Him. His presence is close to us. He indwells us by the Spirit.

Is. 57:15 shows that God lives in a high and lofty place (trans.) AND with the lowly in spirit (imman.).

Acts 17:24, 28 God is in the heavens and is not confined to temples (trans.). He is also not far from each one of us (imman.).

 

[aristides]

Further, Catholics can only trace their history as far back as about 400 A.D.

So you're saying there was no Church until about 400 A.D.? Catholic means "universal" and that body is called the Catholic Church because for 1000 years it was the only Church. To say that the Catholic Church did not exist until 400 A.D. is ridiculous, because that is tantamount to declaring the Church nonexistent until that point.

 

[godrulz]

So you're saying there was no Church until about 400 A.D.? Catholic means "universal" and that body is called the Catholic Church because for 1000 years it was the only Church. To say that the Catholic Church did not exist until 400 A.D. is ridiculous, because that is tantamount to declaring the Church nonexistent until that point.

He likely means the Roman Catholic Church as opposed to Orthodox, Protestant, or 'catholic'/universal in the creedal sense.

 

[spaz]

Well technically speaking Peter was the head bishop. The term Pope for the head Bihop did not come into use until sometime after. The Catholic Church has a historical list of succesors from Peter to present Pope.

Scripture doesn't get into modern physics to start with. The Hebrews mean by and eternal god as one of no duration no beginning no end. Same with Christians, the Alpha and omega.

I never said he wasn't a personal emmanuel God. It was the reformation that moved away from that relation. Luther said God is up there we are down here. He turned God into an abtraction.

You don't need this flawed open theology nonsense to believe in a personal God. I commend you for trying to have a deeper relationship and understanding with God, but open theism is unecessary.

In fact many of your arguments are similar to pagan philisophical arguments and this is why the Christian theologians used Greek philosophy. Because there was Greek philosophy being rediscovered at the time that challenged the Christian view.

The same problems occuring today with the Da Vinci Code rehashing old gnostic views is what open theism is doing rehashing the old predestination free will arguments. The Church already won out with its theologians against these views.

Clete is obviously wrong. Early Christians didn't have a New Testament or Bible to use literally as the Waldenisian heresy tried to.

 

[Bob Hill]

God is open.

Isa 63:7-10 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD And the praises of the LORD, According to all that the LORD has bestowed on us, And the great goodness toward the house of Israel, Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies, According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses. 8 For He said, “Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.” So He became their Savior. 9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the Angel of His Presence saved them; In His love and in His pity He redeemed them; And He bore them and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.

But, we see that Israel rebelled even though God said, Surely they are My people, Children who will not lie.”

Praise God,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

In Romans 8:9-11, we see that the Holy Spirit dwells in us.
Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

I am safe in Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

spaz,

You wrote:

You don't need this flawed open theology nonsense to believe in a personal God. I commend you for trying to have a deeper relationship and understanding with God, but open theism is unecessary.

Do you know what the Open View actually is?

I believe in the Open View of God. We who believe that, see that everything is not already ordained.

It is about God and His ability to have feelings, passion, remorse, anger, expectations, sorrow, etc. It is the biblical theology that shows that man has enough freedom to believe God when God says he may be saved by believing in Jesus Christ as his Savior because He died for him.

Open Theism also believes God has the ability to change His mind or repent about something He said He would do. He usually does this when man has done something to cause God to either repent from harm that He said He would do, or repent from something good that He said He would for man because the man sinned.

It is also the answer to the Calvinistic view that God predetermines everything that has happened and will happen. We have much material on this subject on our site. biblicalanswers.com. Look under the predestination material.

I learned about this position a little over 45 years ago. At that time, I knew of no one else who believed it. That has really changed in the last 15 years.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

God said in Deuteronomy 9 that He would destroy Israel and make of Moses a nation mightier and greater than they.

Deut. 9:13-25 “Furthermore the LORD spoke to me, saying, ‘I have seen this people, and indeed they are a stiff-necked people. 14 ‘Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.’ 15 “So I turned and came down from the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire; and the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands. 16 “And I looked, and behold, you had sinned against the LORD your God—had made for yourselves a molded calf! You had turned aside quickly from the way which the LORD had commanded you. 17 “Then I took the two tablets and threw them out of my two hands and broke them before your eyes. 18 “And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all your sin which you committed in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 19 “For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure with which the LORD was angry with you, to destroy you. But the LORD listened to me at that time also. 20 “And the LORD was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I prayed for Aaron also at the same time. 21 “Then I took your sin, the calf which you had made, and burned it with fire and crushed it and ground it very small, until it was as fine as dust; and I threw its dust into the brook that descended from the mountain. 22 “Also at Taberah and Massah and Kibroth Hattaavah you provoked the LORD to wrath. 23 “Likewise, when the LORD sent you from Kadesh Barnea, saying, ‘Go up and possess the land which I have given you,’ then you rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God, and you did not believe Him nor obey His voice. 24 “You have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you. 25 “Thus I prostrated myself before the LORD; forty days and forty nights I kept prostrating myself, because the LORD had said He would destroy you. 26 “Therefore I prayed to the LORD, and said: ‘O Lord GOD, do not destroy Your people and Your inheritance whom You have redeemed through Your greatness, whom You have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 27 ‘Remember Your servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; do not look on the stubbornness of this people, or on their wickedness or their sin, 28 ‘lest the land from which You brought us should say, “Because the LORD was not able to bring them to the land which He promised them, and because He hated them, He has brought them out to kill them in the wilderness.” 29 ‘Yet they are Your people and Your inheritance, whom You brought out by Your mighty power and by Your outstretched arm.’”

Guess what? God did not destroy them.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

God speaking through a man of God came to Eli and ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But God said He would cut off your arm and the arm of your father’s house, so that there will not be an old man in your house.

1 Sam. 2:27-36 Then a man of God came to Eli and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Did I not clearly reveal Myself to the house of your father when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh’s house? 28 ‘Did I not choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be My priest, to offer upon My altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod before Me? And did I not give to the house of your father all the offerings of the children of Israel made by fire? 29 ‘Why do you kick at My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling place, and honor your sons more than Me, to make yourselves fat with the best of all the offerings of Israel My people?’ 30 “Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. 31 ‘Behold, the days are coming that I will cut off your arm and the arm of your father’s house, so that there will not be an old man in your house. 32 ‘And you will see an enemy in My dwelling place, despite all the good which God does for Israel. And there shall not be an old man in your house forever. 33 ‘But any of your men whom I do not cut off from My altar shall consume your eyes and grieve your heart. And all the descendants of your house shall die in the flower of their age. 34 ‘Now this shall be a sign to you that will come upon your two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas: in one day they shall die, both of them. 35 ‘Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever. 36 ‘And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left in your house will come and bow down to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and say, “Please, put me in one of the priestly positions, that I may eat a piece of bread.” ’ ”

God changed His mind.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

God was willing to change His mind when Hezekiah prayed.

God told Hezekiah through Isaiah that he would die. Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed, and “the Lord, the God of David your father: (said) “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years.

2 Kings 20:1-7 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ” 2 Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, 3 “Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 5 “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. 6 “And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ” 7 Then Isaiah said, “Take a lump of figs.” So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

God sometimes changed His mind, repented from the disaster He did and called on the angel who was destroying Israel and told him to stop.

1 Chronicles 21:14,15 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the LORD looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

God spoke through Micah of Moresheth and said that “Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the temple like the bare hills of the forest.” Hezekiah feared the LORD and sought the LORD’s favor? And the Lord repented.

Jer 26:18,19 “Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, And the mountain of the temple Like the bare hills of the forest.” ’19 “Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORD’s favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Gen 6:5-13 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. 13 And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God was sorry. He destroyed everyone except Noah and his family.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Ezekiel 20:5-26 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, ‘Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’ 8 “But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, ‘I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ 9 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt. 10 Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them.’ 12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless My eye spared them from destruction. I did not make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said to their children in the wilderness, ‘Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols. 19 ‘I am the Lord your God: Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments, and do them; 20 ‘hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’ 21 Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand and acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also I raised My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries, 24 because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols. 25 Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”

God had to keep punishing Israel because they profaned God’s statutes and Sabbaths.

God changed a lot of things over the years as He dealt with Israel.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

There are many more times when our almighty God changed His mind when Israel repented because Israel disobeyed Him.

Our God became frustrated with Israel many times.

This is why I am an Open View believer.

Bob Hill

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I said: Nor does it demand it in any way.
RobE said: Yet, you being the challenger to the Traditional view; it is upon you to disprove it.

Middle Knowledge is not the Traditional viewpoint.

The Traditional view is that God cannot change his mind including how the future will play out. I've already disproven that position and you've partly agree (stating that God changed the future in the case of Hezekiah).

You aren't able to wriggle out of the situation so easily. To use terms such as original plan and backup plan(which require foreknowledge of action) actually defeats your premise that foreknowledge is impossible with free agents.

Not true.
You are accusing foreknowledge of Christ’s death with exhaustive foreknowledge. I never put forth any premise that foreknowledge of a certain event is necessarily impossible with free agents.

I read it. You just refuse to see my conclusion correctly. I'll submit the entire discussion between us on this subject here except my excerpts from outside sources......

Right … please re-read, You said “If man can fall, he can get back up without a savior”. That has nothing to do with Christ being a secondary plan for the salvation of man if Adam sinned. To believe that Christ is a plan to be used if man sins does not mean that man can “get back up without a savior”. Clearly you’ve failed to establish that one is the conclusion of the other.

God's foreknowledge doesn't fail Jesus. In fact Jesus points to just this fact......
Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Here's Jesus' own words showing that knowledge of the hour and day was not the Son's even though the Father knew it.

Wow, your argument broke down even faster than I expected. Oh I agree that Jesus didn’t know the exact hour or day, but He claimed to know that it would happen in their lifetime of the people listening to him. Was Jesus just speaking to them out of ignorance and undeterred by his lack of knowledge began making things up? That seems less than worthy.

Jesus repeated this claim many times … I think he would not have said it unless He knew it was definite (even if even he didn’t know the precise day or hour).

 

[RobE]

Middle Knowledge is not the Traditional viewpoint.

The Traditional view is that God cannot change his mind including how the future will play out. I've already disproven that position and you've partly agree (stating that God changed the future in the case of Hezekiah). [/quote]

I've agreed that it is possible that God changed the future. However, in agreeing to this I acknowledge that God knew Hezekiah's future in order to change it which you must do also. Molina wasn't Traditional? And nowhere am I able to find any theologian of repute stating that God is unable to change His mind. Maybe you might help with this. I have read that He need not change His mind since His intentions are perfect, but can not change His mind is a vastly different statement.

You are accusing foreknowledge of Christ’s death with exhaustive foreknowledge. I never put forth any premise that foreknowledge of a certain event is necessarily impossible with free agents.

Then you must prove that God isn't able to foreknow all events if He is indeed able to foreknow any events brought about by free agents. If it is known once why not always?

_______________

AJ said: “I think you have built a strawman argument for the Open view because you are unfamiliar with what is being discussed. We do not deny, for instance, that God had a plan to have Jesus save mankind should Adam sin … the disagreement is not that God had a plan for every contingency, but that God did not know which contingency He would need to use.”

RobE responded: “This I vehemently disagree with. I believe Jesus was the Plan for creation, not a fail-safe if man couldn't pull it off himself. This is more like Pelagianism where man is able to save himself. Because after all, if man can fall he can get back up without a saviour.”

AJ: That’s just a wild accusation on your part. That God created a backup plan to have Christ dies on a cross in the case that salvation would be needed, does not suggest that man is able to do so without a savior.

Rob: I don't think so. If Christ was a 'backup' plan then you are saying that man could do so without a 'savior'. What other interpretation is there?

AJ: Right … please re-read, You said “If man can fall, he can get back up without a savior”. That has nothing to do with Christ being a secondary plan for the salvation of man if Adam sinned. To believe that Christ is a plan to be used if man sins does not mean that man can “get back up without a savior”. Clearly you’ve failed to establish that one is the conclusion of the other.​

I have re-read and saw that I was comparing your position with that of Pelagian. 'If man can fall, he can get back up without a saviour' was in relation to this. Your position is that man was able remain perfect on his own and not require a 'saviour'; just as Pelagianism states that man might reach perfection on his own and therefore does not require a 'saviour'. Somewhat different even though the tenor is the same. Let me re-phrase and adjust the question for both of us ---- Has there ever been a man which could remain perfect on his own and therefore never require a saviour? And, do you believe in 'original sin'?

__________________________________

Wow, your argument broke down even faster than I expected. Oh I agree that Jesus didn’t know the exact hour or day, but He claimed to know that it would happen in their lifetime of the people listening to him. Was Jesus just speaking to them out of ignorance and undeterred by his lack of knowledge began making things up? That seems less than worthy.

Jesus repeated this claim many times … I think he would not have said it unless He knew it was definite (even if even he didn’t know the precise day or hour).

Three things. First of all, the apostles certainly faced tribulation during their lifetimes which isn't the final tribulation we are awaiting(for example the Roman destruction of Jerusalem). Secondly, Jesus saying that He doesn't know the hour and day tells us that He was truly ignorant of the exact time. Thirdly, for the Catholics and others, what makes you think the apostles aren't still living or won't be living when the tribulation comes?

I also need to note that Jesus says that God the Father foreknows the hour and time exactly; which is, Jesus Himself saying that God foreknows the exact time of a future event occuring.

Not quite broken,

:chuckle: Rob

 

[spaz]

As for using Scripture to back up these open theist ideas, I don't think the authors of Scripture got into theoretical views of time and relativity etc.