ARCHIVE: Open Theism in Light of First John 3:20

[Goose]

Freak,

Yes. God ALWAYS does what is right. Now you're gonna have to start getting into free will and how god has given us authority over things. This is where man's choice comes into play and how God isn't accountable for our sin.

Gen 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by Goose
Calvin,

Why argue? It's OK cause it's all predestined!

Yes, "unto salvation"....

But,
that's a typical comeback from a person who don't understand the doctrine.

Your lack of understanding does not negate the truth of Predestination nor does your lack of understanding give you a license to redefine it.

Furthermore, OUR lack of understanding about something in the Bible does not give us license to redefine its plain meaning to fit our finite understanding. This is a paradox to us: Immutability (Num 23) vs. the few passages in the OT where God seems to "change" his mind or “regret” (The Flood, Saul). This is not a reason to throw out the true doctrine of Immutability—the Scripture points to the truth of both, the higher being his Immutability, how one works with the other is unknowable.

Renegades have been reinterpreting the Bible to resolve the mysteries of our faith from the beginning, you are in numerous, errant company, Goose.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

[mantra] Forget all passages that directly show God changing...... just keep repeating Numbers 23!!! [/mantra]

Freak, "repent" doesn't necessarily mean turning from something you have done which was wrong. Repent can simply mean to change from one train of thought to another, or to change your plan, or to change your direction.

Why do you continue to reject the plain words of our great God?

Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How come everytime I answer Freak's objections he changes the subject?

 

[Poly]

Plato comes to his own conclusion by taking a few scriptures in the bible of God not changing and makes this concrete over every minute issue that will ever come up with God. Plato is the one who says if something changes it cannot be perfect. IF God can never change any aspect of any event whatsoever then this makes God a liar when we see events in the bible where He changes as in changing His mind NOT to take Hezekiah's life. So we have to come to the conclusion that He obviously did not mean "NOT CHANGE" as in remaining as a stone idle. If I say, "I am a woman, I will not change" does that mean I was wrong when I am driving down the road and decide to "change" lanes in my car? No. When God speaks of not changing He is speaking of His character, righteousness and holiness. How do we know this? By some God given common sense. A tree starts out as an acorn but does it remain this way? No. It changes, yet the tree always remains, perfectly, a tree.

 

[Freak]

Ok, Knight, you say:

Freak, "repent" doesn't necessarily mean turning from something you have done which was wrong. Repent can simply mean to change from one train of thought to another, or to change your plan, or to change your direction.

Huh? Repentance is:

Taken from Unbound Bible Dictionary:

"The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Matt_27:3).
Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb, with
the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised."

Are you telling me God repented, in light of this?

God doesn't change. The passages you refer to mention Him doing nothing of the sort. The language employed in each case needs to be understood as a anthropomorphism or anthropopathism. For we understand from Scripture:

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Knight, what part of "...who does not change..." do you not understand? Please tell me?

By the way, in this passage you refer to: Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!

Can we understand His weariness as a anthropomorphism or anthropopathism? Or are you telling me your great God gets weary?

 

[Calvinist]

Ooohhh... good Freak, you are getting into the real argument against the wooden OV interpretation of the Old Testament. Add this faulty hermeneutic to the revisionist history along the lines of Greek philosophy and the Partristics and you being to understand why the Evangelicals so overwhelmingly defeated them in session.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak
Ok, Knight, you say:

Freak, "repent" doesn't necessarily mean turning from something you have done which was wrong. Repent can simply mean to change from one train of thought to another, or to change your plan, or to change your direction.

Huh? Repentance is:

Taken from Unbound Bible Dictionary:

"The verb metamelomai is used of a change of mind, such as to produce regret or even remorse on account of sin, but not necessarily a change of heart. This word is used with reference to the repentance of Judas (Matt_27:3).
Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge. This verb, with
the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised."

Are you telling me God repented, in light of this?

The dictionary isn't the inerrent word of God.

Freak continues....

God doesn't change. The passages you refer to mention Him doing nothing of the sort. The language employed in each case needs to be understood as a anthropomorphism or anthropopathism.

IF SO.... What does the anthropomorphism or anthropopathism MEAN within the context of the verse?????

Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

If.. "sorry" is a anthropomorphism or anthropopathism what does it mean? Please reinterpret the verse for us.

Freak continues...

For we understand from Scripture:

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Knight, what part of "...who does not change..." do you not understand? Please tell me?

God's righteous character does not change.

Freak continues...

By the way, in this passage you refer to: Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!

Can we understand His weariness as a anthropomorphism or anthropopathism? Or are you telling me your great God gets weary?

The verse means what it says!!! God is sick of repenting, relenting etc. He is tired of it! He wishes man wouldn't be such a knuckle head!

I don't second guess God.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Calvinist
Ooohhh... good Freak, you are getting into the real argument against the wooden OV interpretation of the Old Testament. Add this faulty hermeneutic to the revisionist history along the lines of Greek philosophy and the Partristics and you being to understand why the Evangelicals so overwhelmingly defeated them in session.

Uh.... yeah... right.

Revisionist history?

Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that those which are well made and in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. . . . But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . does he change himself for the better . . . or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? . . for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself nor deceives others - Plato's Republic

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Knight
Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that those which are well made and in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. . . . But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . does he change himself for the better . . . or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? . . for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself nor deceives others - Plato's Republic

Don't you love how idiots love to come in and mess things up then others have to try and clean their mess?

 

[Goose]

Originally posted by Calvinist


Yes, "unto salvation"....

But,
that's a typical comeback from a person who don't understand the doctrine.

Your lack of understanding does not negate the truth of Predestination nor does your lack of understanding give you a license to redefine it.

Furthermore, OUR lack of understanding about something in the Bible does not give us license to redefine its plain meaning to fit our finite understanding. This is a paradox to us: Immutability (Num 23) vs. the few passages in the OT where God seems to "change" his mind or “regret” (The Flood, Saul). This is not a reason to throw out the true doctrine of Immutability—the Scripture points to the truth of both, the higher being his Immutability, how one works with the other is unknowable.

Renegades have been reinterpreting the Bible to resolve the mysteries of our faith from the beginning, you are in numerous, errant company, Goose.

To throw out scripture that says God lives and changes is to throw out the Word of God and not be able to trust God.

Cause if he says one thing He must mean something else....right? Wrong.

 

[Poly]

Originally posted by Goose

Cause if he says one thing He must mean something else....right? Wrong.

Kind of like parents and public school teachers who make idle threats.

 

[Freak]

When confronted with a Bible dictionary Knight replies:

The dictionary isn't the inerrent word of God.

So, I guess we can throw out dictionaries out or for the matter mathematic text books (those are not inerrant too)--so when a mathematics text book tells us 3+15=18 we shouldn't take too much stock into what it declares since it's not inerrant?

Thats nonsense Knight and you know it.

"You go on:

IF SO.... What does the anthropomorphism or anthropopathism MEAN within the context of the verse?????

Genesis 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

If.. "sorry" is a anthropomorphism or anthropopathism what does it mean? Please reinterpret the verse for us."

Thats easy. God was grieved.

As we know from Scripture God does not repent (Numbers 23:19).

I ask Knight:

For we understand from Scripture:

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Knight, what part of "...who does not change..." do you not understand? Please tell me?

Knight incredibly answers:God's righteous character does not change.

Ok, what about His essence? Are you telling me God changes in other ways as do humans? What kind of puny God do you have, Knight? Is He constantly changing depending our human actions? What a bizarre God you serve.

 

[Freak]

Oh Knight please consider,

Because God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.

"You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous."

God is righteous. He does what is always right (For He is perfect). No need to repent (or change) of any action--for what He does is always right.

No need for a change in His thinking.

Knight, a question for you: Does God do what is always right? If the answer is yes then why the need for repentance (or change)?

 

[SwItChBlAdE]

Freak-
God does not change you are right! He does not change who he is. He is God and will always be God, He is perfect and will always be without fault.

Now lets say He has a plan for your life, the plan is you become a pastor. Lets also say you mess up, doing drugs or something. God can change His mind on your plan. He is like, I gave freak that choice, freak messed it up, now on to plan B. Which is quoting the same scripture over and over on Tol.

OVER VIEW! God wont change who He is, But can and will change his mind and/or plans.

 

[Goose]

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Kind of like parents and public school teachers who make idle threats.

And we all know what happens there.

 

[Freak]

I believe I'm finished with this subject for awhile. My points have been made. God will deal with those whom He desires to deal with.

 

[Prisca]

Freak,

Your description of God is so limiting. I’m amazed that you can’t see it. A God that can’t change His course of action is a stone idol that cannot respond to prayer. How can we have a relationship with a god who is unable to change his mind? Your idea of God takes the reality out of so many wonderful passages in the Bible.

Psa. 55:16-19 As for me, I will call upon God, and the LORD shall save me. Evening and morning and at noon I will pray, and cry aloud, and He shall hear my voice. He has redeemed my soul in peace from the battle that was against me, for there were many against me. God will hear, and afflict them, Even He who abides from of old. Selah because they do not change, therefore they do not fear God.

Psa. 66:19 –20 But certainly God has heard me; He has attended to the voice of my prayer. Blessed be God, Who has not turned away my prayer, Nor His mercy from me!

I could go on and on, but surely you get the point. A relationship requires interaction. How can we have interaction with the unchangeable?

 

[Prisca]

Sorry, I didn't see your last post. I guess this is finished.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak
When confronted with a Bible dictionary Knight replies:

The dictionary isn't the inerrent word of God.

My point stands. A dictionary (even a Bible Dictionary) is NOT the word of God. When the Bible says God can and does repent whom am I to say otherwise?

Freak continues...

Thats easy. God was grieved.

Great! We agree! God was grieved! Which of course is a change! God wasn't grieved and then because of man's wickedness, God became grieved even your redefinition requires an obvious change.

Freak's brain is on hold....

As we know from Scripture God does not repent (Numbers 23:19).

As we know from scripture God can and DOES repent!

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.