ARCHIVE: Open Theism in Light of First John 3:20
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Freak
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How many times do I have to tell you that God doesn't repent.
God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
God's Word has spoken so leave it at that. He can't repent. He is perfect. So, that passage is not referring to God's repentance.
Besides there is no clear intepretation to Genesis 6:6
NIV -The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
NASB-The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
AMP-And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart.
NLT-So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them. It broke his heart.
You must be a ole King James kind of guy-And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Regretted, relented, sorry, etc---the fact remains God did not repent (mind you---when reading Scripture use some common sense), in light of the clear teaching of God's Word that tells us He doesn't repent.
God was grieved and your point?
Then you make a anti-Biblical statement:
If so.... clearly He should have one of the most basic capabilities: the ability to change!
You say this despite the truth that He doesn't change:
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."
What part of "I the Lord do not change." do you not understand???
The apostle James tells us:
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows
What part of "who does not change" do you not understand???
How much clearer does God's Word need to be?
You may ask, Freak, how is it that God does not change?
Well, God doesn't change because He is perfect. Why does He need to change? He is perfection. He is God. He knows everything. He is absolute. What else does He need? No need for repentance. You thinking God repented is the stupidest thing I have heard.
So, Knight:
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."
My friend, it's quite clear: "Everything is uncovered" (including the future) and " laid bare before His eyes"--you do believe this Knight, don't you?
God's Word tells us:
"Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."
Is His understanding lacking to where he needs to change?
God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
God's Word has spoken so leave it at that. He can't repent. He is perfect. So, that passage is not referring to God's repentance.
Besides there is no clear intepretation to Genesis 6:6
NIV -The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
NASB-The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
AMP-And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved at heart.
NLT-So the LORD was sorry he had ever made them. It broke his heart.
You must be a ole King James kind of guy-And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Regretted, relented, sorry, etc---the fact remains God did not repent (mind you---when reading Scripture use some common sense), in light of the clear teaching of God's Word that tells us He doesn't repent.
God was grieved and your point?
Then you make a anti-Biblical statement:
If so.... clearly He should have one of the most basic capabilities: the ability to change!
You say this despite the truth that He doesn't change:
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."
What part of "I the Lord do not change." do you not understand???
The apostle James tells us:
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows
What part of "who does not change" do you not understand???
How much clearer does God's Word need to be?
You may ask, Freak, how is it that God does not change?
Well, God doesn't change because He is perfect. Why does He need to change? He is perfection. He is God. He knows everything. He is absolute. What else does He need? No need for repentance. You thinking God repented is the stupidest thing I have heard.
So, Knight:
"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."
My friend, it's quite clear: "Everything is uncovered" (including the future) and " laid bare before His eyes"--you do believe this Knight, don't you?
God's Word tells us:
"Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."
Is His understanding lacking to where he needs to change?
Freak
New member
Knight,
Again God is spirit.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God did not change. Jesus is the second person of the triune God--He is the unique God-man. He didn't change. He is pre-existent-no need for change. You are begging for Him to change when there was no change.
God's essence didn't change. He is always been "spirit"---
Again God is spirit.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God did not change. Jesus is the second person of the triune God--He is the unique God-man. He didn't change. He is pre-existent-no need for change. You are begging for Him to change when there was no change.
God's essence didn't change. He is always been "spirit"---
Goose
New member
Freak,
There's a difference between not changing in character but still being able to change in other ways.
God isn't stone. He changes. He has feelings. He wasn't always on the cross. He wasn't always a curse. He wasn't always in the grave. He changes. He lives. Peace and Grace.
There's a difference between not changing in character but still being able to change in other ways.
God isn't stone. He changes. He has feelings. He wasn't always on the cross. He wasn't always a curse. He wasn't always in the grave. He changes. He lives. Peace and Grace.
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Poly
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Changing does on equal sin. So many people feel that for some odd reason if God changes it's wrong and suddenly He's not a soveriegn God. If I tell my child He can go to Johnny's house this weekend but throughout the week he has thrown temper tantrums, lied about where he was, pushed his sister down and gave her a bloody nose, etc., am I wrong in changing my mind in letting him go because he does not now deserve to? Does he think of me as a weak parent in doing this? Does he think I'm wrong? He may hate it and sulk about it but deep in his heart he would know I did the right thing. Why does changing have to be wrong? We limit God when we think He is a God who cannot change. He's given us the freedom to change in our decisions. Why is it this same attribute be given to Him?
Freak
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Thank you for the story but please tell me: is God perfect?
You comment: We limit God when we think He is a God who cannot change.
God doesn't change according to Scripture.
God's Word tells us Poly:
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
What part of that do you not understand?
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How could something be perfect that lacked such a basic ability? I have the ability to change, YOU have the ability to change, but you constrain God and claim you can change but He can't!
How much more clear does God need to speak to Freak....
Freak
New member
*sigh*
Knight--
Consider that the writers of Scripture often use anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms which are merely descriptions of God's actions and feelings in human terms. In that Jeremiah passage we see the writers employing this.
Scripture is clear-God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.
God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
He is perfect--thats why He doesn't need that ability. Duh!
Knight--
Consider that the writers of Scripture often use anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms which are merely descriptions of God's actions and feelings in human terms. In that Jeremiah passage we see the writers employing this.
Scripture is clear-God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.
God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
He is perfect--thats why He doesn't need that ability. Duh!
Freak is basing his last argument on pagan Greek philosophy.
If something is perfect it cannot change, for if it did it wouldn't be perfect anymore.
The above logic has a glaring flaw.
It only could apply to an inanimate object. For instance... if a perfectly round bowling ball changed it might mean it is no longer a perfectly round bowling ball anymore.
However, God is NOT an inanimate object, God is the Living God. God is alive! He is an animate being which by definition means He can change. If an animate object couldn't change we might refer to it as "broken".
A clock that cannot change is "broken" and a person who cannot change is dead.
If something is perfect it cannot change, for if it did it wouldn't be perfect anymore.
The above logic has a glaring flaw.
It only could apply to an inanimate object. For instance... if a perfectly round bowling ball changed it might mean it is no longer a perfectly round bowling ball anymore.
However, God is NOT an inanimate object, God is the Living God. God is alive! He is an animate being which by definition means He can change. If an animate object couldn't change we might refer to it as "broken".
A clock that cannot change is "broken" and a person who cannot change is dead.
Read my last post.
Freak
New member
Knight--
Because God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.
"You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous."
God is righteous. He does what is always right (For He is perfect). No need to repent of any action--for what He does is always right.
No need for a change in His thinking.
Because God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.
"You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous."
God is righteous. He does what is always right (For He is perfect). No need to repent of any action--for what He does is always right.
No need for a change in His thinking.
Freak
New member
In despite of God's Word telling us otherwise, Knight, you continue to portray a God that can be coaxed or compromised into changing. This is absurd.
Who has understood the mind of the LORD ,
or instructed him as his counselor?
Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?
Is it Moses, or David, Knight perhaps?
He is independent of His creation--so the answer is quite obvious noone!
Who has understood the mind of the LORD ,
or instructed him as his counselor?
Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him,
and who taught him the right way?
Who was it that taught him knowledge
or showed him the path of understanding?
Is it Moses, or David, Knight perhaps?
He is independent of His creation--so the answer is quite obvious noone!
Goose
New member
This is the basis of pagan platonic philosophy and understanding of "god". Not the biblical understanding of the Living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I'm surprised to see Freak, who helps convert so many pagans taking sides of pagan philosophers who said:
God is perfect.
The perfect does not change.
God does not change.
This is the philosophical basis for so many theologians through out the centuries who have based their beliefs on the unholy marriage between pagan philosophy and the Bible, consummated by people like Augustine, Martin Luther and John Calvin laboring and giving birth to a heretical theology known as Calvinism.
Through out all of scripture however, we understand that the God of the Bible DOES change, not for the worse, or for the better, but because He is perfect and alive. He has emotions. He repents. He cries. He cried for us!
Our God is not of stone. Jesus was the personification of God and became flesh. Not a stone idol! People who believe in the mutability of God do not put God in a box, we let him live and allow the Almighty to do whatever he wants. It's the ones who believe God is immutable and unchanging(practically made of stone) that put God in the box. Or more so, a coffin. His hands are tied. Calvin's God can not change.
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." - Col 2:8
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Freak
New member
Goose--
Because God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.
"You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous."
God is righteous. He does what is always right (For He is perfect). No need to repent of any action--for what He does is always right.
No need for a change in His thinking.
Goose, a question for you: Does God do what is always right? If the answer is yes then why the need for repentance?
BTW, you will notice I have used Scripture as the basis for my beliefs not people.
Because God is perfect He doesn't need to repent.
"You are the LORD God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and named him Abraham. You found his heart faithful to you, and you made a covenant with him to give to his descendants the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites. You have kept your promise because you are righteous."
God is righteous. He does what is always right (For He is perfect). No need to repent of any action--for what He does is always right.
No need for a change in His thinking.
Goose, a question for you: Does God do what is always right? If the answer is yes then why the need for repentance?
BTW, you will notice I have used Scripture as the basis for my beliefs not people.
Calvinist
New member
I am beginning to just feel sorry for your Goose. You have bought into a whole host of revisionist history and don't understand the Bible at all as a consequence.
To say that Classical Christianity is is "heretical" is just more proof that you are far from the Apostles' religion and yourseld have been, "spoil[ed]... through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
It's sad really and I shall pray for you.