ARCHIVE: Open Theism in Light of First John 3:20

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Lion
Please listen to the ridiculousness of your own argument. When did God see this nothingness before time? Was it before He created time? Of course not, because the term itself refutes that possibility stating there was a before, before time was created. It is a contradiction, and God is not a contradiction, just as His power and His knowledge is also not a contradiction. That is why God is not powerful enough to make a rock so big He can’t move it, and He cannot know events in an as yet untold future, other than the events He will make happen. Because He is real and not a magic contradiction.

Exactly. I agree. I presented that contradiction and then immediately refuted it to show that our own measurements of time could not be applied to such a situation.

God is not a contradiction. But sometimes elements of His nature may seem contradictory in our vision. The greatest hinderence we have to our future understanding of the world we live in is our current understanding of the world we live in. No man can know everything and we are constantly learning more about the world around us. Many things that once seemed contradictory or beyond our understanding are now understood.

Am I to believe that a person can fully understand the nature of God? Am I to believe that nothing has to necessarily surpass our understanding? All our compiled knowledge is a tool used for learning more, but that tool is constantly changing and it contunually makes parts of itself obsolete.

I've already demonstrated that I see time as an element of creation and under this situation, there would simply be time's existence and non-existence. There can be no linearity applied to it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by philosophizer


I would prefer to respond to the specific rather than the general. Could you give me a few specific predictions that you would suggest I look at. I'll take a look at them as soon as I can.

Thanks.

OK.... I have tons of examples....

Let's start with one of them, in the book of Isaiah God speaks of Israel as a "Vinyard".

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, But it brought forth wild grapes. 3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Two times God states that He expected one outcome but ended up with another.

IF.... God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future why would God expect an outcome that was not part of His exhaustive foreknowledge?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Oh and one more thing....

Oh and one more thing....

I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle so when you have time please respond to what I posted above which was.....

Let's assume for sake of argument that God knows all of the future in exhaustive detail as you assert.

And at THIS moment He knows that my friend John Doe is not saved.

Let's further assume that God also knows that John Doe will live the next three years of his life rejecting God. Of course God also knows every other detail of John Does life for the next three years as well. God knows.... that in three years John Doe will eventually commit suicide by an overdose of drugs and die an unsaved man on March 3rd 2006.

John Doe knows none of this of course.

Ask yourself: Does John Doe have the ability to make God's foreknowledge of John's own life for the next three years NOT come to pass?

Can John Doe thwart God's exhaustive foreknowledge?

 

[Freak]

Open Theism fails on several counts.

First of all many OVer's will attempt to point some passages that appear to say God is ignorant of the future, this is simply nonsense.

Consider that the writers of Scripture often use anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms which are merely descriptions of God's actions and feelings in human terms. Which we humans often intrepret incorrectly (as the OVers have done). So, in light of Mal. 3:6 & James 1:17, we see that God did not change but rather the language employed in this verse expressed God's patience; not that He changed. The writers of Scripture make that clear: "I the Lord do not change" and James tells us that with God, "there is no variation or shadow due to change."

In Numbers 23:19 we see that God is not a man, his actions must be unalterable. Since God is unchangeable He doesn't "change" His mind or plans (or even actions). Pretty clear to me. So, looks like the burden of proof lies with you to prove God is like a man, when in light of Numbers 23 He isn't. He cannot change (in any way).

What many OVer's also fail to see is that Jesus who is God was able to look into the future and knew exactly what was to pass. Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak
Open Theism fails on several counts.

First of all many OVer's will attempt to point some passages that appear to say God is ignorant of the future, this is simply nonsense.

Consider that the writers of Scripture often use anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms which are merely descriptions of God's actions and feelings in human terms. Which we humans often intrepret incorrectly (as the OVers have done). So, in light of Mal. 3:6 & James 1:17, we see that God did not change but rather the language employed in this verse expressed God's patience; not that He changed. The writers of Scripture make that clear: "I the Lord do not change" and James tells us that with God, "there is no variation or shadow due to change."

Ah the ol' anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms loop hole eh Freak?

Anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms are intended to help the reader understand the text. NOT HINDER the reader from understanding the text. All anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms have meanings, and you must ask yourself.... do these anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms help us to understand what is being said, or do they mean the opposite of what is being said or something different from what is being said?

Case in point:
Most closed viewers assume that the following verse about God repenting is simply a anthropopathism or a anthropomorphism.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented Jehovah that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Assuming the verse IS a anthropopathism or a anthropomorphism what does the anthropopathism or anthropomorphism mean in context to the verse? Does the anthropopathism or anthropomorphism make the verse mean something OTHER than what it says? Or does the anthropopathism or anthropomorphism help us to understand that God was indeed "sorry" that He created man on earth.

Tell me Freak....
In your opinion, what does the anthropopathism or anthropomorphism MEAN in Genisis 6:6?

Freak continues....

In Numbers 23:19 we see that God is not a man, his actions must be unalterable. Since God is unchangeable He doesn't "change" His mind or plans (or even actions). Pretty clear to me. So, looks like the burden of proof lies with you to prove God is like a man, when in light of Numbers 23 He isn't. He cannot change (in any way).

God has the prerogative to not change His mind or change His actions regarding a specific judgment, after all who is going to stop Him?

However God has the capability of changing and tells us in no uncertain terms that will in fact do just that!

Jeremiah 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Furthermore... Freak, clearly you overstate your case when you say "He cannot change (in any way)" after all, you do not reject Christ's deity do you? And certainly you would have to agree that He "became flesh" right?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Freak continues....

What many OVer's also fail to see is that Jesus who is God was able to look into the future and knew exactly what was to pass. Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that.

Freak.... how about when God predicted through Jonah that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days? Was it destroyed in 40 days?

Jonah 3:1 Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you." 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

 

[Freak]

Knight, let's answer some of your questions here.

First, you asked me: In your opinion, what does the anthropopathism or anthropomorphism MEAN in Genisis 6:6?

Genesis 6:6 tells us: The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

I do not see where God is repenting. Does God need to repent? Of course not for He is not a man needing to repent.

For the Word of God teaches you Knight:

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

So, it is clear God is not repenting here. Perhaps relenting (according to His will not to man) but not repenting in the light of the Numbers 23 passage.

Then you resort to the question about the incarnation. You basically asked- since Jesus became man did He (God) not change?

Nope. God's essence is spirit. His incarnation did not alter His essence. Remember there is three persons with the Godhead. The Godhead's essence never changes in light of Mal. 3:6 & James 1:17). Don't you agree?

When I asked Knight:

What many OVer's also fail to see is that Jesus who is God was able to look into the future and knew exactly what was to pass. Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that.

He answers by asking me a question. I'll wait to answer your question when you completely answer my intial question.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak
Knight, let's answer some of your questions here.

This would be the place!

Freak continues...

First, you asked me: In your opinion, what does the anthropopathism or anthropomorphism MEAN in Genisis 6:6?

Genesis 6:6 tells us: The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

I do not see where God is repenting. Does God need to repent? Of course not for He is not a man needing to repent.

Freak, with all due respect the word in Genesis 6:6 is "nacham", which is the Hebrew word for "repent". Which is why the KJV appropriately translates the verse... "Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. "

In other words....
God changed His mind from when He felt that everything was "good" (Genesis 1:31). Repent, relent, sorry are all acceptable translations for the word "nacham".

Freak continues...

For the Word of God teaches you Knight:

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

So, it is clear God is not repenting here. Perhaps relenting (according to His will not to man) but not repenting in the light of the Numbers 23 passage.

Repenting, relenting and feeling sorry all have the same meaning in that at one point God felt a certain way and then later He didn't feel that way anymore as in Genesis 6:6.

So.... I will ask it in another way....
In your opinion, what does the word "nacham" MEAN in Genisis 6:6?

Freak continues...

Then you resort to the question about the incarnation. You basically asked- since Jesus became man did He (God) not change?

Nope. God's essence is spirit. His incarnation did not alter His essence. Remember there is three persons with the Godhead. The Godhead's essence never changes in light of Mal. 3:6 & James 1:17). Don't you agree?

Congratulations! You just gave the prototypical Open View response in that God does NOT CHANGE in essence or in character.

But keep in mind your original assertion was that God does not change in ANY WAY. Which clearly is an un-biblical concept.

Freak continues...

When I asked Knight:

What many OVer's also fail to see is that Jesus who is God was able to look into the future and knew exactly what was to pass. Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that.

He answers by asking me a question. I'll wait to answer your question when you completely answer my intial question.

My answer is clear....

Some of things that God predicted within the Bible come to pass as predicted which shows God's incredible knowledge of His creation. Yet MANY other things do not come to pass as predicted which shows two things: 1. man has a will apart from God's. 2. God is merciful! And God can and does change based on mans actions or reactions.

When God told Nineveh that in 40 days they would be destroyed, God was not a prisoner to His own foreknowledge! God was able to change His plan for Nineveh due to the fact that Nineveh repented and God is merciful!

Likewise...
God tells us that those who reject Him are already condemned.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yet God is not a subject to His own foreknowledge and can change and have mercy upon those who accept Him.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Praise the Lord!

 

[Prisca]

Why pray?

Why pray?

Freak said, "Since God is unchangeable He doesn't "change" His mind or plans (or even actions)."

It's a good thing Hezekiah didn't believe this way of thinking:

2Kings 20:1-6 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’” Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying, “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”

 

[Poly]

Re: Why pray?

Re: Why pray?

Originally posted by Becky


It's a good thing Hezekiah didn't believe this way of thinking:

2Kings 20:1-6 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’” Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying, “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”

Good point Becky. Maybe that's because Hezekiah knew he was praying to the LIVING God.:thumb:

 

[Freak]

Knight claims: God changed His mind.

God is not like a man to change His mind.

God's Word tells us:

God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

God is not like man to change.

God's Word also tells us:

"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

So, God says He doesn't change. You say He changes. Hmmmm...

God's Word also tells us:

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Again we are informed that He does not change. He didn't change His mind. He knows everything so how could He?

God's Word tells us that He knows all:

...whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

So, how could He, Knight?

In Genesis 6 God "relented" (for He could not repent according to Numbers 23)-- meaning He held back but this does not mean He "changed"---His ways are not our ways!

I believe when understanding free will & God's foreknowledge--we need to acknowledge both and believe both but...

...we cannot deny God's omniscience--for the Scriptures are quite clear-God knows everything and there is no limitation to His understanding. How we harmonize both? We don't, Moses tells us:

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law

 

[Freak]

Re: Why pray?

Re: Why pray?

Originally posted by Becky


It's a good thing Hezekiah didn't believe this way of thinking:

2Kings 20:1-6 In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’” Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, saying, “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.” ’ ”

Are you telling me that you believe God changes His mind despite God's Word telling us:

**"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."**

Orthodox Christianity embraces the Scriptural truth that God knows all. Read the Holy Scriptures for yourself:

Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon me, and he told me to say: "This is what the LORD says: That is what you are saying, O house of Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."

Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Omniscience simply means "all knowledge"-Holy Scripture points to the truth that God knows all things for He has all knowledge contrary to the heretical open view theory.

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: Why pray?

Re: Re: Why pray?

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Good point Becky. Maybe that's because Hezekiah knew he was praying to the LIVING God.:thumb:

Who's not embracing the idea that God is not a living God?

My trust is in God's Word that declares:

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."

Is God limited in understanding, in light of this passage, of Hezekiah's future?

 

[Prisca]

Did God change His mind regarding Hezekiah, or was He just lying?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Becky
Did God change His mind regarding Hezekiah, or was He just lying?

God doesn't lie, Becky. That's a silly question and God doesn't change His mind.

For God's Word tells you:

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."

You tell me. Was God limited in understanding Hezekiah's future, in light on this passage?

"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

Becky, it's quite clear: "Everything is uncovered" (including the future) and " laid bare before His eyes"--you do believe this Becky, don't you?

Are we ever going to understand all that God does? Of course not! He works withinh another dimension. Who are we to try to figure everything out? We are but human. He is God.

 

[themuzicman]

Originally posted by Freak

What many OVer's also fail to see is that Jesus who is God was able to look into the future and knew exactly what was to pass. Did Jesus really only make a prediction about Peter denying him based upon Peter's character? But the prophecy was so specific: three denials before the rooster crowed twice (Mark 14:30-72). When Ezekiel prophesied about the destruction of the city of Tyre, was that just a really good guess? It was too accurate a prophecy for that.

What? Is your God not powerful enough to do that? Is your God so ignorant of what's going on that He couldn't possibly predict with that kind of precision?

Pretty weak God.

Michael

 

[Goose]

Changing one's mind doesn't make one a liar.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Goose
Changing one's mind doesn't make one a liar.

For God's Word tells you:

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit."

You tell me. Was God limited in understanding Hezekiah's future, in light on this passage?

"Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."

My friend, it's quite clear: "Everything is uncovered" (including the future) and " laid bare before His eyes"--you do believe this Goose, don't you?

 

[Goose]

Of course I believe that.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Goose
Of course I believe that.

Oh Knight, what about you?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak
In Genesis 6 God "relented" (for He could not repent according to Numbers 23)-- meaning He held back but this does not mean He "changed"---His ways are not our ways!

Held back? Held back what??? What are you talking about? The bible is pretty clear God repented, relented or felt sorry (which ever way you want to slice it) that He made man.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Freak continues to reference Numbers 23. Let me address that... Numbers 23 doesn't mean that God doesn't have the ability to change or relent but only that He isn't going to repent regarding the specific situation in Numbers 23. God is all powerful isn't He? If so.... clearly He should have one of the most basic capabilities: the ability to change! The kind of gods that can't change are called "stone idols".

And then Freak appeals to... "His ways are not our ways" . I am sorry but I feel that is sort of a theological cop out. If God says He repented, relented or felt sorry I think we should take His word and believe HIm.

OK... Freak I would like you to re-address your assertion that God does not change in ANY WAY. The Bible clearly shows God changing in many ways most notably that God "became flesh". I don't throw the term "heretic" around very loosely but I would certainly consider the statement God doesn't change in ANY WAY complete and utter heresy, for do so.... denies that God "became flesh" and dwelt among us.