ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

[Jaltus]

Too bad I was not in on this earlier. I will sum up my comments from another thread.

Let me again say that historically, there is no reason that the church allowed denial of Christ.

Let me again say that scripturally, a la Luke 12, that denial is never okayed.

Luke 12
4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.
5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God.
7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
8 "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God.
9 But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.


Anyone else notice the link? Do not fear those who would kill the body.

POINT 1 It does not say "your body," it just says the body. This means if they plan on killing ANYONE to make you deny.

POINT 2 This passage is not limited in any way, making it specific to every circumstance. Note the "whoever" in verse 8. That same word (more correctly, I should say concept since it deals with how a participle is used) is continued into 9, talking about denial.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Jaltus you are spot on as usual.

 

[Jaltus]

Pa,

Too bad Knight and the mods do not agree.

 

[Freak]

Case Close!

Good points Jaltus. It saddens me to think there isa group of so-called Christians who are hoping they can find a loophole to enable them to deny Jesus.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Well I think it's more that they have a great concern for their loved ones which at it's heart is a pure motive.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
Jaltus you are spot on as usual.

Oh come one Pilgrim do you REALLY agree with Jaltus and Freak on this issue?

Do you really think that:

Playing a part in a movie or play that glorifies God but requires acting like you are denying Christ will send you to hell??????

Do you REALLY think that our relationship with God is so shallow that He does NOT know our hearts and our TRUE intentions?

And yes, I do expect an answer, the question is NOT rhetorical.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight
Oh come one Pilgrim do you REALLY agree with Jaltus and Freak on this issue?

Do you really think that:

Playing a part in a movie or play that glorifies God but requires acting like you are denying Christ will send you to hell??????

Do you REALLY think that our relationship with God is so shallow that He does NOT know our hearts and our TRUE intentions?

And yes, I do expect an answer, the question is NOT rhetorical.

Come on Knight. Be truthful about what I represent regarding this issue.

First, I made it rather clear that "Playing a part in a movie or play that glorifies God but requires acting like you are denying Christ will NOT send you to hell??????

But denying Christ with the intent to save "your own hide" is absolutely wrong. I think PA agrees with me on this.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Freak

Come on Knight. Be truthful about what I represent regarding this issue.

First, I made it rather clear that "Playing a part in a movie or play that glorifies God but requires acting like you are denying Christ will NOT send you to hell??????

But denying Christ with the intent to save "your own hide" is absolutely wrong. I think PA agrees with me on this.

Well, actually I was referring more to Jaltus than I was to you Freak.

Jaltus makes the case that you cannot deny Christ FOR ANY reason including acting in a play or movie, even if it glorifies Christ. He has affirmed that several times on this very thread.

In fact he re-affirmed that notion in the post that Pilgrim responded.... "Jaltus you are spot on as usual". In response to Jaltus saying...

POINT 2 This passage is not limited in any way, making it specific to every circumstance. Note the "whoever" in verse 8. That same word (more correctly, I should say concept since it deals with how a participle is used) is continued into 9, talking about denial.

 

[Jaltus]

Knight,

First of all, get your facts straight. This post is only my third in this thread. You are confusing threads in your head (I had to say it, it rhymed).

Secondly, Pa will not agree with all I say since he holds to OSAS, a big problem in this debate. You are forced to say that you cannot lose salvation due to rejecting Christ because your presupposition is that it is not possible to lose salvation. Basically, your reading of Luke 12 is conditioned by your theological presupposition.

Thirdly, you did not in fact respond to my post. Do you plan on responding to it?

 

[Jaltus]

Oh, and to turn Knight's question on it's head:

Do you REALLY think that our relationship with God is so shallow that we do not care that we deny Him regardless of our TRUE intentions?

Essentially, Knight says you can deny Christ if your life is on the line, saying that what Peter did was okay, even though Peter explicitly needed forgiveness.

 

[jeremiah]

This is a very interesting question. I see many people have responded in a very few days.
My first thought was to say no, my second thought was to say, only under extreme conditions. My third thought was to look at some scriptures.
I thought of Acts 21 where some disciples in the Spirit warned Paul not to go to Jerusalem. Then a prophet was sent to show him exactly what God was warning Paul would happen to him. Yet Paul said that he would go, despite what he knew would happen. I think we can take this to mean, that God was not requiring or commanding Paul to go, but he chose to go on his own free will. In that case God honored Paul's zeal and allowed him to go and preach the gospel there. I think likewise under certain circumstances we could deny Christ "in a way" if we were not really denying him in our hearts. In other words, 'yes Lord I am willing to die for you, but I am not willing to trade my life just yet, while there is so much more that I can do for you on this earth,' for some maniac who is pointing a gun at my head.
Then I thought of another scripture, where Jesus says that they will hand you over to be killed? I think,and do not think of what you are going to say. The Spirit will give you utterance. For instance if it is not God's will for you to die yet, then he may give you the right words to say.
For example a maniac holding a gun to your head and screaming, "Do you think that Jesus is God" : The Spirit might give you these words. "You mean the God that has caused such bitterness in your heart, no I do not believe in THAT god."

On the other hand if you say in your heart that, you are not willing to die for Christ, that you didn't "sign up for this", then you truly have denied Jesus, and He wil deny you.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Hey Knight,

I will agree with you that in the instance of acting or writing the denial is OK. That is to say, it is not issued ina real life circumstance, it is issued fictitionally as a pedagogical excercise.

In any other, real life, circumstance I don't agree that denying Christ is right for the very reason Jaltus outlines in his post re. Luke 12.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Knight,
Thirdly, you did not in fact respond to my post. Do you plan on responding to it?

You have got to be kidding me....

Jaltus you have no shame.

I have covered your question so many times it makes me want to vomit, and then all you can do is time after time accuse me of not responding!!! Furthermore... you already told me you were ignoring me!!!!! Why should I respond to someone who tells me he is longer talking to me?

I really think you have some sort of mental disfunction.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
Hey Knight,

I will agree with you that in the instance of acting or writing the denial is OK. That is to say, it is not issued ina real life circumstance, it is issued fictitionally as a pedagogical excercise.

In any other, real life, circumstance I don't agree that denying Christ is right for the very reason Jaltus outlines in his post re. Luke 12.

OK Pilgrim, lets review....

A lunatic comes to your door and barges in. He ties you up at gun point to a chair. He then aims his gun at your children and asks...

"I am here to kill Christians.... In Three seconds, YES or NO are you guys Christians?"

And your telling me that your not gonna "act" to save your family?

Comparing this to Peter is wrong because Peter wasn't acting! He REALLY was denying Christ. Furthermore he wasn't dealing with a rogue lunatic who wanted to murder his family.

In this situation you wouldn't be REALLY denying Christ, you would only being ACTING so as to thwart the evil lunatic man and prevent him from killing your family, you and the rest of the neighbors.

So what do you do Pilgrim?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Please don't vomit Knight.. please. Then I will vomit, and it will get really messy. I am thoroughly enjoying watching this exchange BTW....

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Please don't vomit Knight.. please. Then I will vomit, and it will get really messy. I am thoroughly enjoying watching this exchange BTW....

Thanks Dee Dee but I don't see much "exchange". Do you?

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight

So what do you do Pilgrim?

Even though you posed this question to Pilgrim, I'm going to answer it as well. Knight, I would not deny Christ. I hold to my original answer on this thread. I believe that my daughter would be better off with God than to see her mother deny Christ (even if I really didn't mean it).

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Knight, I was using "exchange" very loosely....

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


Even though you posed this question to Pilgrim, I'm going to answer it as well. Knight, I would not deny Christ. I hold to my original answer on this thread. I believe that my daughter would be better off with God than to see her mother deny Christ (even if I really didn't mean it).

God would be so greived. God would not want you to sacrifice your kids for some lunatic. God loves the clever! He loves to thwart evil with all sorts of deception including out-right lying!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Knight, I was using "exchange" very loosely....

LOL - I know.