ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

[Pilgrimagain]

Originally posted by Yxboom

With a bullet in their heads no doubt.

Hey, you trust yourself, I'll trust God.

A. A play is a fiction, not real life, where as to deny Christ in a real life circumstance is all together different. If you can't see that then I fear you are not seeing it for the sake of argument rather than out of a real logical problem. What was that old Rich Mullins line? "You'll meet the Lord in the furnace, long time before you meet him in the sky" In other words, Daniel was not burned.

B. It's not legalism because I am not doing it for reward or out of fear of punishment. I can not deny Christ because it is not in my nature to do so. Having been touched by God I am not able to lie about that touch. It is a perfect touch, one that I can not hide.

 

[Yxboom]

I can not honestly say I have any family members who have been thrown in furnaces and have survived uncharred, how about you? If you do than I would see the validity of your statement otherwise you have no point.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Let me clarify. In a play representing someone elses stated position that is ok. I would never act as if that was my own position.

And this whole works or faith accusation is a real straw man. No one ever asserted that this was a question of such things. As a matter of fact, my refusal to deny Christ is all about faith and has nothing to do with works.

 

[Yxboom]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


It's faith that my daughter will be in better hands than she is now.

You maybe are not seeing that you are trusting that your refusal to deny Christ for the sake of your childs life would please God. Just as those who offered their daughters and sons to Molech as a burnt offering in hopes it is pleasing to their god.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


It's faith that my daughter will be in better hands than she is now.

I just don't get that logic in these circumstances.

I could make the same argument about them being "in a better place" when they die from an untreated illness but I still give them Penicillin when they get strep throat. God has delegated authority to me to raise and protect my children from harm. I have no truth obligation to a lunatic that wants to murder my children.

 

[Yxboom]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain

And this whole works or faith accusation is a real straw man. No one ever asserted that this was a question of such things. As a matter of fact, my refusal to deny Christ is all about faith and has nothing to do with works.

So getting back to the original point of the discussion is a strawman. That is just ignorant.

 

[Yxboom]

In case you bring about more accusations of strawman explain the content of denying Christ and "enduring to the end" seperated from a works/faith debate.

Originally posted by Freak
The Holy Scriptures speak of Jesus declaring in no certain terms that-"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

The Lord Jesus Christ is absolutely clear. You cannot
intentionally deny Him and be right with God. It is puzzling why some believers on TOL would indirectly infer you can deny Jesus and still be right with Him. I cannot think of any circumstance where denying Him would be righteous. Can you?

Thank God for the martyrs that shed their blood for their faith in Christ.

As the apostle John put it: He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Overcoming (and not denying Jesus) even in the midst of death has its rewards...

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Pilgrim actually the whole works vs. faith thing is NOT a straw man if you are going to use Luke 12 as a proof text for your argument that it is NEVER right to deny Christ.

Think about it....

IF....

Luke 12:9 “But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

Is your proof text....... then denying Christ means the loss of salvation for a believer!

If a believer in the Body of Christ (which Luke 12 does not apply to by the way) can lose his salvation then he must work to keep it or at very least endure (which is a work). Therefore NOT denying Christ becomes a work.

Certainly NOT a straw man.

 

[Yxboom]

Thank you Knight, however this will only fuel Freak into further accusing me of being you.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Yxboom
Thank you Knight, however this will only fuel Freak into further accusing me of being you.

He he... Oh well!

Maybe he can exercise you out of me?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


Even though you posed this question to Pilgrim, I'm going to answer it as well. Knight, I would not deny Christ. I hold to my original answer on this thread. I believe that my daughter would be better off with God than to see her mother deny Christ (even if I really didn't mean it).

Knight for some odd reason has a problem with this.

Good post!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
Again you asume that the denial of Christ is the only course.

In reality I will not fear him who can kill the body. I will fear him who can also kill the soul...God. I would not deny Christ, rather I would place the care of my family firmly in the palm of God's all protecting and good hand which is, in the long run, much safer than my (or anyone elses) cleverness.

I can not deny Christ. It is not in me. I do not have the ability to do it.

Good post!

Knight has lost it!

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Yxboom
You maybe are not seeing that you are trusting that your refusal to deny Christ for the sake of your childs life would please God. Just as those who offered their daughters and sons to Molech as a burnt offering in hopes it is pleasing to their god.

I have reasons for this faith though. It's not faith in my refusal to deny Christ, it's faith in God to take care of my daughter. So, instead of denying Christ, I would have the faith to cry out to God to save my daughter in such an instance. But, if God did not save my daughter, I have faith that she would be well taken care of until I joined her in heaven.

Here are just a few of the reasons I have faith enough to refuse to deny Christ:

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed faith to faith: it is written, the just shall live by faith.

Romans 5:1-2
Thereby being justified by faith, we have peace in God through our Lord Jesus Christ; By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 10:17
Faith comes through hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I Corinthians 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man, but in the power of God.

I Corinthians 10:13 One of my favorites
There hath no temptation taken you but such is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able; but will with the temptation make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I Corinthians 16:13
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace, ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

II Thessalonians 3:2-3 Another favorite
That we be delivered from unreasonable wicked men, for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you, and keep you from evil.

Hebrews 11:1 Favorite verse about faith
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Yxboom
Thank you Knight, however this will only fuel Freak into further accusing me of being you.

Another false claim. I have never claimed that.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight
He he... Oh well!

Maybe he can exercise you out of me?

That was a stupid comment, Knight.

 

[Yxboom]

c. moore let ebenz go!!!

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Yxboom
c. moore let ebenz go!!!

Knight, is this necessary? Should you create another thread apologizing to C. Moore for allowing this coarse joking to continue.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Yxboom
c. moore let ebenz go!!!

LOL! I can get on a soapbox with the best of them.

 

[Yxboom]

Originally posted by Freak


Knight, is this necessary? Should you create another thread apologizing to C. Moore for allowing this coarse joking to continue.

Course joking?!! What are you on Freak... I was referring to the misuse of the faith passages. Do you defend that as well like you do the Christians are little gods?

 

[Yxboom]

Admit it Freak you fear the Avenging Angel.......you fear my avatar!!! Run and hide........run and hide.