ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight


God would be so greived. God would not want you to sacrifice your kids for some lunatic. God loves the clever! He loves to thwart evil with all sorts of deception including out-right lying!

Mathew 10:33
But whosoever deny me before men, him will I also deny before the Father in heaven

II Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us

What do you say about these two verses then, Knight?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


Mathew 10:33
But whosoever deny me before men, him will I also deny before the Father in heaven

This verse is specifically to unbelievers. Read it and you will see.

Which is something of course we all agree on... if a man denies Christ and remains in his unbelief he will be denied by God and go to hell. Different topic altogether.

you continue...

II Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us

What do you say about these two verses then, Knight?

Ahhhh..... the strongest OSAS verse in the entire Bible.

Lets take a look at it a verse at a time shall we....?

2Timothy 2:11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.

EXPLANATION: If we reckon ourselves dead in Christ we are saved! (Romans 6:11)

2Timothy 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.

EXPLANATION: If we endure, we will have rewards in heaven, we will "reign" with Christ in heaven. In other words... we will have many crowns in heaven , (1Corinthians 9:25, Philippians 4:1, 1Thessalonians 2:19, 2Timothy 4:8)

2Timothy 2:12 cont... If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

EXPLANATION: If we deny Him we will not "reign" with him in heaven, we will forgo our rewards and our crowns.(2Timothy 2:20)

2Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

EXPLANATION: Once we are part of Christ's Body we have been given an irrevocable gift (Romans 11:29) which we cannot give back! Even if we deny Him! And especially if we are only acting!

Praise the Lord!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Just so this previous post doesn't get overlooked....

Just so this previous post doesn't get overlooked....

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
Hey Knight,

I will agree with you that in the instance of acting or writing the denial is OK. That is to say, it is not issued ina real life circumstance, it is issued fictitionally as a pedagogical excercise.

In any other, real life, circumstance I don't agree that denying Christ is right for the very reason Jaltus outlines in his post re. Luke 12.

OK Pilgrim, lets review....

A lunatic comes to your door and barges in. He ties you up at gun point to a chair. He then aims his gun at your children and asks...

"I am here to kill Christians.... In Three seconds, YES or NO are you guys Christians?"

And your telling me that your not gonna "act" to save your family?

Comparing this to Peter is wrong because Peter wasn't acting! He REALLY was denying Christ. Furthermore he wasn't dealing with a rogue lunatic who wanted to murder his family.

In this situation you wouldn't be REALLY denying Christ, you would only being ACTING so as to thwart the evil lunatic man and prevent him from killing your family, you and the rest of the neighbors.

So what do you do Pilgrim?

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight
EXPLANATION: Once we are part of Christ's Body we have been given an irrevocable gift (Romans 11:29) which we cannot give back! Even if we deny Him! And especially if we are only acting!

Praise the Lord!

But, as a parent, do you want your children to see you deny Christ and think that it's okay to do so? My daughter and I have talked about this time and time again. I used to think that I should deny my faith in order to save her life. It took her coming to me and asking me what I would do if someone threatened to kill her if I didn't deny Christ. I told her what I thought at the time. She then told me that she would rather be in heaven with God than to see me deny Christ, even if she knew it wouldn't be true!

So, as you can see, this has been discussed in this house.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


But, as a parent, do you want your children to see you deny Christ and think that it's okay to do so?

No, of course I don't want them to see that. But I would rather they saw that, then have their head blown off with a shot gun.

I think my kids would be smart enough to understand I was just acting. Especially since we would live to talk about it!

You continue

My daughter and I have talked about this time and time again. I used to think that I should deny my faith in order to save her life. It took her coming to me and asking me what I would do if someone threatened to kill her if I didn't deny Christ. I told her what I thought at the time. She then told me that she would rather be in heaven with God than to see me deny Christ, even if she knew it wouldn't be true!

So, as you can see, this has been discussed in this house.

Well, that's too bad that your daughter thinks that.

My kids are taught that God knows our hearts.

He knows our intentions.

Our relationship with God is built on something far more real than some hollow words to thwart a wicked lunatic.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Again you asume that the denial of Christ is the only course.

In reality I will not fear him who can kill the body. I will fear him who can also kill the soul...God. I would not deny Christ, rather I would place the care of my family firmly in the palm of God's all protecting and good hand which is, in the long run, much safer than my (or anyone elses) cleverness.

I can not deny Christ. It is not in me. I do not have the ability to do it.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

How is Peter's denial different? I think you are rationalizing your weakness.

Peter denied Christ because he was afraid that if he did not he would be taken and killed as well. He was afraid for his life.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Oh and yes, I am quite sure that,l in truth, God would protect my family better than I could in lying.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

On the other hand, I don't think he would ever get me tied up. I'd beat the **** out of him before it ever got that far!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Pilgrim... hmmm... OK I guess we disagree....

You have no problem acting as if your denying Christ as long as its not to a lunatic? (like in a play or in a movie). Yet you cannot act like your denying Christ to protect others.

Your logic makes no sense (to me).

Peter's denial is different because he was REALLY denying Christ. At that point in Peter's mind he had decided that Christ was NOT the Messiah. he was truly denying what Christ was.

When I act to thwart evil I am not doubting who Christ is, I am only acting!

 

[Yxboom]

After such excellent points made by Knight this always comes back to a dispensational debate for over and over the words of Christ under the Covenant of Circumcision are used as proof text against the liberty and gift we have in Christ.

 

[Yxboom]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
Oh and yes, I am quite sure that,l in truth, God would protect my family better than I could in lying.

With a bullet in their heads no doubt.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
Oh and yes, I am quite sure that,l in truth, God would protect my family better than I could in lying.

This is weird! I agree with you Pilgrim!

 

[Yxboom]

There is the alter of denying Christ and thus far you have sacrificed your child on it. Do you not see the demented legalism in this?

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Yxboom
There is the alter of denying Christ and thus far you have sacrificed your child on it. Do you not see the demented legalism in this?

A few years ago, I would have answerred this question with a yes. But, with little pushes and prods here and there, God has shown me that I'm to get "back to basics." In other words, I'm supposed to believe Him and the Bible like I did when I first became saved.

 

[Yxboom]

Since the apparent answer is No now, are you going back to a works based righteousness?

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Yxboom
Since the apparent answer is No now, are you going back to a works based righteousness?

Nope. Never based my faith on works. My grandmother taught me better than that. I know that works cannot get you into the kingdom of God.

 

[Yxboom]

Denying Christ to save a life? Is that faith or works?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by ebenz47037


A few years ago, I would have answerred this question with a yes. But, with little pushes and prods here and there, God has shown me that I'm to get "back to basics." In other words, I'm supposed to believe Him and the Bible like I did when I first became saved.

Back to the basics? How can you call obliging a lunatic murdering your kids "back to the basics"?

I can think of many instances when it WOULD be wrong to deny Christ.

But the real question is........
Are there ANY circumstances that would make denying Christ NOT wrong.

It seems now that most agree (besides Jaltus) that it would be OK to deny Christ as part of a play or movie (especially if it were to glorify God). So we have at least one example where denying Christ is not wrong.

Why is it that it is OK to deny Christ as an act for friends that don't want to murder us.... but its NOT OK (according to you folks) that we cannot deny Christ as an act to protect our family from a murderous lunatic?

I say....
God knows our hearts and minds. He would know our motivation. He would know if we were only acting for an audience and He would know if we were only acting to thwart a wicked lunatic.

Let's not turn off our reason just so we can feel puffed up when we say... "I would NEVER deny Christ".

I certainly do not mean any offense to any of you. But that's the only way I could phrase that.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Yxboom
Denying Christ to save a life? Is that faith or works?

It's faith that my daughter will be in better hands than she is now.