ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

[Freak]

Originally posted by Calvinist


What about the passge on The Great Commandment? That is what the post was about, not your broad generalization.

Calvin, look with me to Luke 14:

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
34"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus is clear: Everything is secondary to your relationship to HIM! Even Jesus said: 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by Freak


Calvin, look with me to Luke 14:

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.
[/B]

So your interpretation of this verse is that we MUST HATE our wife and children to be a disciple of Jesus?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Calvinist


So your interpretation of this verse is that we MUST HATE our wife and children to be a disciple of Jesus?

What do you think Jesus is saying?

Jesus is essentially saying everything else (like family) is secondary to HIM!

 

[Pilgrimagain]

I agree with Freak, it is not actual hate, but it is the common use of Hyperbole. Hyperbole was common in both Hebraic and Greek thought and was used both in literature and instruction.

In other words, your love for, and committment to Christ is above all things, even your own life or the lives of those around you. I think that Knight at least has affirmed this idea in the thread "everyone on TOL deserves the death penalty" or maybe it was YX. In that instance it was asserted that even a 12 year old child should have eternal death if they did not turn to God. The death and torture of innocents is not a problem there so how is that any more ruthless than the postition of not denying Christ in front of men, even if it jeapordizes the lives of those around you?

 

[Calvinist]

First Freak uses the Great Commandment to domenstrate that the family is subordinate to God in terms of our loyalty, here is it:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Now "like unto it" in the second part of this must mean that loving your neighbor is equal to loving God. (Refer to Good samaritan parable for Jesus' teaching on "who is your neighbor?") Your neighbor includes all people including your family. So love of neighbor is not subordinate to love of God but equal.

Next Freak uses this passage to support his claim only this time we are not to take litterally the part about "Hating" your family:

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."

Now here we are litterally taught to "hate" our neighbors but this is explained away by means of making it a "principle" in order to continue to argu that it is "NEVER" morally correct to deny Jesus.

Consistentcy Freak? Which is it Hate or Love your neighbor?

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
I agree with Freak, it is not actual hate, but it is the common use of Hyperbole. Hyperbole was common in both Hebraic and Greek thought and was used both in literature and instruction.

In other words, your love for, and committment to Christ is above all things, even your own life or the lives of those around you. I think that Knight at least has affirmed this idea in the thread "everyone on TOL deserves the death penalty" or maybe it was YX. In that instance it was asserted that even a 12 year old child should have eternal death if they did not turn to God. The death and torture of innocents is not a problem there so how is that any more ruthless than the postition of not denying Christ in front of men, even if it jeapordizes the lives of those around you?

I agree that it is Hyperbole but Freak used the Great Commandment first, which obviously teach that loving God and loving neighbor are equal laws.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Calvinist
First Freak uses the Great Commandment to domenstrate that the family is subordinate to God in terms of our loyalty, here is it:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Now "like unto it" in the second part of this must mean that loving your neighbor is equal to loving God. (Refer to Good samaritan parable for Jesus' teaching on "who is your neighbor?") Your neighbor includes all people including your family. So love of neighbor is not subordinate to love of God but equal.

Next Freak uses this passage to support his claim only this time we are not to take litterally the part about "Hating" your family:

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."

Now here we are litterally taught to "hate" our neighbors but this is explained away by means of making it a "principle" in order to continue to argu that it is "NEVER" morally correct to deny Jesus.

Consistentcy Freak? Which is it Hate or Love your neighbor?

HUH? What are you talking about? Jesus uses figures of speech all the time. It only takes common sense to see (as PA has done) that Jesus is talking about placing HIM above all else.

Jesus said rather clearly: 3In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. This includes family.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Calvinist


I agree that it is Hyperbole but Freak used the Great Commandment first, which obviously teach that loving God and loving neighbor are equal laws.

Yes, the commandement to love God along with the radical commitment to surrender all to HIM in Luke 14 combines to make the clear statement: All else is secondary to Jesus!

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by Freak


HUH? What are you talking about? Jesus uses figures of speech all the time. It only takes common sense to see (as PA has done) that Jesus is talking about placing HIM above all else.

Jesus said rather clearly: 3In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. This includes family.

Then I don't have to follow the Great Commandment? All I have to do is follow the PRINCIPLE of giving all to Christ, which plays out practically in letting my family die for my faith in Christ?

Is this your argument?

 

[smilax]

Originally posted by Calvinist
Now "like unto it" in the second part of this must mean that loving your neighbor is equal to loving God.

I don't know how you got this idea of equality.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by smilax
I don't know how you got this idea of equality.

I'm still puzzled myself.

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by smilax
I don't know how you got this idea of equality.

Well exegete the passage and tell me how it doesn't mean that loving your neighbor and loving God are equal...

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Calvinist


Well exegete the passage and tell me how it doesn't mean that loving your neighbor and loving God are equal...

Well, in light of the other many passages that speak to the Lordship of Christ over family, I believe there is a differing elements of equality.

 

[smilax]

The word for "first" is "protos." That means "most important" in context. The word for "second" is "deuteros." That means it is secondary. Thus the command to love God is more important than the commandment to love one's neighbor. The "like unto" is irrelevant for determining importance.

 

[Calvinist]

Yes, "like unto" is important.

I could only find one translation that rendered "Protos" and "Deutros" to mean that "Protos" is superior to "Deuteros." That was the CEV. All the rest render this as succesion but not order of importance. As the Ten Commandments are not completely in order of importance, so Christ is trying to make the argument here that loving your neighbor is as important ("like unto") loving God.

Here is the greek in question:
omoioV,a {hom-oy'-oce}
1) like, similar, resembling 1a) like: i.e. resembling 1b) like: i.e. corresponding to a thing 1) likewise, equally, in the same way

EQUALLY IN THE SAME WAY! for the hard of hearing or just wooden brains.

 

[smilax]

If I replaced "like unto" with "similar to," would you consider it a recognition of equal importance? It has to do with the formulation, not the priority.

Now tell me: what kind of succession are you expecting, if not importance?

Matthew xi, 16: "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows."

This does not mean the generation is equal to the children in terms of value. It's an analogy.

 

[Calvinist]

Originally posted by smilax
If I replaced "like unto" with "similar to," would you consider it a recognition of equal importance? It has to do with the formulation, not the priority.

Now tell me: what kind of succession are you expecting, if not importance?

Matthew xi, 16: "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows."

This does not mean the generation is equal to the children in terms of value. It's an analogy.

That is an anology, true.

Do you suggest that the Great Commandment is an analogy? If so what is Jesus really speaking of? Nonsense.

The passage we are dealing with is a commandment. "Like unto" in Matthew 22:39 is meant to teach that loving neighbor and God are equal.

 

[smilax]

If God wanted to say that loving Him was more important than loving one's neighbor while making them the two most important commandments, what words should He have used, if not protos and deuteros?

 

[Calvinist]

He would have left out "like unto" then it would be plain. The Scripture is clear, why you deny orthodox interpretation to defend the idea that it is ALWAYS appropriate to confess God over anything else is beyond me.

1. "Love the Lord Your God..."
2. "Love Your Neighbor as yourself "LIKE UNTO" your love for God.

It's a list and Jesus intentionally added "like unto" to communicate concisely his teaching in the Beautitudes. Try and think!

Loving God is Loving People AND Loving People is Loving God.

 

[smilax]

What makes you think yours is the "orthodox interpretation"?