ARCHIVE: I believe religion to be obsolete
- Thread starter prodigal
- Start date
Royal_Lion04
New member
Soulman,
You're welcome! And thanks for Welcoming me to the "Monkeyhouse" LOL!:chuckle: Actually, my comments were more for Prodigal than anyone else. But if you got something out of it, then praise God!
Blessings,
Royal_Lion04
Royal_Lion04
New member
If the Bible was "written to be impossible to understand," then it would be no good to ANYONE :doh: But yet it offers the FREE GIFT of eternal life to EVERYONE :thumb:
Think about it!
1PeaceMaker
New member
The Bible is not written to be impossible to understand without exception..
Folks like the good Samaritan, or Mary Magdalane.. they would be able to understand all of the critical points.
Other than that, the Bible might make a fool of you, but it's wisdom will not be apparent, or open for investigation, until the gift of humility has been bestowed.
I never said that. I said that it can't be proven with your senses.
So?
Yes you do. I did, and I was a Christian when I did. And I found Him. You can too.
You actually heard those?:noway: What other superpowers do you have?
That's why I'm not religious. Religion is obsolete.
He allows people to choose that because He doesn't want robots. If people are going to love Him, they have to love Him of their own accord. He gave us freewill for this reason. He loves us. And no amount of "pen spinning" is going to save you. Nor will it prove anything to you. Only Christ can save you. You are already forgiven, deal with it.
I can't reject Him. I know Him. And I am in Him, as He is in me.
Prove Jesus is not the Lord, and we shall see.
Ummm, okay?
Royal_Lion04
New member
You are right, it does take revelation by the Spirit in order to understand.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us whore being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destry the wisdom of the wise: the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than Man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. (1 Corinthians 1:18-25)
But at the same time remember what 2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentace.
Balder
New member
Clete,
I do hope you will respond to post 390 and give these ideas some thought.
Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd look in the Catholic encyclopedia to see what it had to say about Old Testament cosmology, and look what I found:
"The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables (Chabas, LÆAntiquiteÆ historique, Paris, 1873, pp. 64-67). Likewise to the mind of the Babylonians the sky was an immense dome, forged out of the hardest metal by the hand of Merodach (Marduk) and resting on a wall surrounding the earth (Jensen, Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, pp. 253, 260). According to the notion prevalent among the Greeks and Romans, the sky was a great vault of crystal to which the fixed stars were attached, though by some it was held to be of iron or brass. That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Gen., i) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew word means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended; the Vulgate rendering, firmamentum corresponds more closely with the Greek stereoma (Septuagint, Aquila, and Symmachus), something made firm or solid. The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in such passages as Job, xxxvii, 18, where reference is made incidentally to the heavens, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in the account of the deluge (Gen., vii ), where we read that the flood gates of heaven were opened, and shut up (viii, 2). (Cf. also IV 28 sqq.) Other passages e.g. Is., xlii, 5, emphasize rather the idea of something extended: Thus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them out (Cf. Is., xliv, 24, and xl, 22). In conformity with these ideas, the writer of Gen., i, 14-17, 20 represents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time."
So, my question is, why should we hold a book which preserves (and in fact takes for granted) such beliefs about the nature of the Cosmos to be the only valid foundation for rational knowledge and the verification of all truth claims?
Peace,
Balder
I do hope you will respond to post 390 and give these ideas some thought.
Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd look in the Catholic encyclopedia to see what it had to say about Old Testament cosmology, and look what I found:
"The notion that the sky was a vast solid dome seems to have been common among the ancient peoples whose ideas of cosmology have come down to us. Thus the Egyptians conceived the heavens to be an arched iron ceiling from which the stars were suspended by means of cables (Chabas, LÆAntiquiteÆ historique, Paris, 1873, pp. 64-67). Likewise to the mind of the Babylonians the sky was an immense dome, forged out of the hardest metal by the hand of Merodach (Marduk) and resting on a wall surrounding the earth (Jensen, Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, pp. 253, 260). According to the notion prevalent among the Greeks and Romans, the sky was a great vault of crystal to which the fixed stars were attached, though by some it was held to be of iron or brass. That the Hebrews entertained similar ideas appears from numerous biblical passages. In the first account of the creation (Gen., i) we read that God created a firmament to divide the upper or celestial from the lower or terrestrial waters. The Hebrew word means something beaten or hammered out, and thus extended; the Vulgate rendering, firmamentum corresponds more closely with the Greek stereoma (Septuagint, Aquila, and Symmachus), something made firm or solid. The notion of the solidity of the firmament is moreover expressed in such passages as Job, xxxvii, 18, where reference is made incidentally to the heavens, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass. The same is implied in the purpose attributed to God in creating the firmament, viz. to serve as a wall of separation between the upper and lower of water, it being conceived as supporting a vast celestial reservoir; and also in the account of the deluge (Gen., vii ), where we read that the flood gates of heaven were opened, and shut up (viii, 2). (Cf. also IV 28 sqq.) Other passages e.g. Is., xlii, 5, emphasize rather the idea of something extended: Thus saith the Lord God that created the heavens and stretched them out (Cf. Is., xliv, 24, and xl, 22). In conformity with these ideas, the writer of Gen., i, 14-17, 20 represents God as setting the stars in the firmament of heaven, and the fowls are located beneath it, i.e. in the air as distinct from the firmament. On this point as on many others, the Bible simply reflects the current cosmological ideas and language of the time."
So, my question is, why should we hold a book which preserves (and in fact takes for granted) such beliefs about the nature of the Cosmos to be the only valid foundation for rational knowledge and the verification of all truth claims?
Peace,
Balder
Redfin
New member
Great link to a brilliant debate! :thumb: Thanks, Clete.
I recommend that anyone who hasn't taken advantage already, check this out - Bahnsen/Stein Debate
Lighthouse, just meant there's no point in arguing about something neither one of us can prove. Just goes round and round. As a technical matter, from your point of view, all you CAN say is that I had no faith or relationship to throw away. My only point would be that you are not saying anything I wouldn't have said when I was a Christian. All rather predictable. There is, however, no reason for you to assume that YOU are immune to deception. Every ex-Christian I've ever met "thought" they were saved -- before they woke up. You can say nothing more than that. There's no way you can "know" such a thing for a certainty until the Final Judgment.
What's worse? Finding out later that you were deceived ("I never knew you"), or finding out now ("It's all a crock")?
Soulman
What's worse? Finding out later that you were deceived ("I never knew you"), or finding out now ("It's all a crock")?
Soulman
Royal_Lion04
New member
Soulman,
That's cooll!!!:thumb: Thanks for the welcome!!! Hope to talk to you some more.
Royal
wickwoman
New member
Originally posted by granite1010
Count me in.
Here's a real treat...imagine an eternity with Sozo, Clete, Aimiel, and Lighthouse.:shocked:
Sorry. I think I'd have to choose Hell with Granite, Soulman, Prodigal and me. There'll be plenty more folks there. I'm pretty sure Billy Joe will be there. I mean, he didn't "die young" so I'm pretty sure he wasn't "good." He can be in charge of the entertainment. Soulman's bringing turkey sandwhiches. Granite, you bring beer. I'll make sweet potatoe souffle. Somebody ask Dan Quail, does potatoe have an "e?" I forget and I'm too lazy to use spell check this morning.
1PeaceMaker
New member
Everyone will have an opportunity, I am sure. What they choose to do with it is then their choice.
wickwoman
New member
You know it really bugs me when people use scripture as a weapon and take quotes out of the context in which they were contained:
Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
There you go Clete, buddy, that scripture has your name all over it. Enjoy!
Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
There you go Clete, buddy, that scripture has your name all over it. Enjoy!
1PeaceMaker
New member
But, if you wind up at the pearly gates, you won't call the picnic off will you? I would be so dissapointed...
...Hey Wickwoman. Potato only has an "e" if it is more than one potato, as in, gabriel will bring the sweet potatoes to the soiree with granite, soulman, prodigal and thee. i volunteer to organize. i suggest for music some good ole "down-home blues", some heavy metal and a bit of classical ...... granite, dark german beer for me please..... and soulman, plenty of spicy mustard for our turkey sandwiches. i can feel the excitement!
dotcom
New member
Originally posted by Royal_Lion04
"We" meaning who? Atheists and Liberals?
Religion will NEVER be obsolete. That infact, was one of prodical's assertions. If he was not self-obsessed with his own thoughts and started listening to what other people write, he could have seen jjjg's post:
http://theologyonline.com/forums//showthread.php?postid=630284#post630284
To waste a lot of time claiming religion is obsolete without points to back it up is atheistic, irrational, utopian, illusive, childish and uncalled for.
"We" meaning who? Atheists and Liberals?
Religion will NEVER be obsolete. That infact, was one of prodical's assertions. If he was not self-obsessed with his own thoughts and started listening to what other people write, he could have seen jjjg's post:
http://theologyonline.com/forums//showthread.php?postid=630284#post630284
To waste a lot of time claiming religion is obsolete without points to back it up is atheistic, irrational, utopian, illusive, childish and uncalled for.
I can only assume that this in reference to the quotation I made in reference to Soulman making a judgment without knowing the facts. If so, I had this exact teaching in mind!
Jesus is not teaching not to judge at all but is teaching not to be hypocritical when you do judge. This passage is the golden rule applied to the hypocrite. As you do unto others, it will be done unto you. If you judge someone harshly for something that you are guilty of yourself then you will be judged with the same harshness. Therefore, don't judge someone over the speck in their eye until you have the plank removed from your own.
Prodigal, Wickwoman, et al have been claiming (judging) Christianity to be a false belief system based upon their belief that it cannot be validated or proven by any objective means, while all the while their own world view has been factually shown to be in that very condition. Thank you wickwoman for proving my entire point, Jesus Himself has argued my position from the 7th Chapter of Matthew.
Resting in Him,
Clete