Originally posted by prodigal
Lighthouse,
First, I never denied the existence of god. I deny your “idea” of god, so please stop trying to read my mind and put words in my mouth. Secondly, you being alive is no proof whatsoever of god’s existence. Because you have the bible, an explanation of the origins of all things, you believe that your very existence is proof enough for not only yourself, but for myself as well.
I know it's not proof enough for you. I already told you that when I said you'd deny my existence as proof.
LH, I’m not challenging the validity of your existence, I’m challenging the validity of your standard, the bible. That’s why I reject Clete and Hilston’s “validity of sensory perception” argument. I rejected it because they feel the need to validate their senses and they use the bible as a standard by which to validate them. I need no standard. My challenges call into question not their perception but the validity of the standard by which they validate their perception. See the difference? That’s why I reject that argument.
The problem here, your problem, is that you are trying to find with your senses that which your senses will never know. You can't smell God. You can't see God. You can't touch/feel God. You can't taste God. And you can't hear God. Not in the physical. It is in your soul that you can commune with God. And it is only by that you will know Him. If you don't deny the existence of a God, then why don't you seek Him out. Find out if He is really there. I did. And I found Him. You can too. If you would just look. Search Him with your soul.
Grow up, LH. I’ve been “twisiting” nothing. I’ve been quoting you word for word, line for line. Instead of believing that I’m “twisiting” your words, maybe you should take off your blinders and come to realize that your words are twisited to begin with.
I said that you might be twisting them. But that was merely an afterthought. I knew that was not the case. Which is why I first mentioned that you were misunderstanding me. Which you have not denied.
Yet by your own admission god has never spoken to you physically, he has never shown himself to you physically, he only communicates to you via your soul which you cannot even prove exists. Do I really need to twisit anything, LH?
"'Cause I can sniff, I can see
I can count up pretty high
But these faculties aren't getting me
Any closer to the sky
But my heart of faith keeps poundin'
So I know I'm doin' fine
But sometimes finding You [God]
Is just like trying to
Smell the color nine...
Smell the color nine?
But nine's not a color
And even if it were you can't smell a color
That's my point exactly..."
-Chris Rice
'Smell the Color 9'
Oh! My feelings… they hurt…
:baby:
You shouldn’t have asked me that, LH.
According to your fairy tale, god created all humans with an inherent sin nature.
Nope. Not what I believe at all. God created us with free will. That is not an inherent sin nature.
Now you can argue that Adam was the one who screwed all of us over, but if Adam were perfect to begin with than he never would have eaten from the tree,
Who said Adam was perfect? God, alone, is perfect.
so therefore the sin nature is there from the beginning, Adam just pointed out an inherent flaw in god’s creation, a flaw that ticked your god off because as mirror images of god he saw that imperfection in himself.
What is this sin nature you speak of? God gave Adam free will. Adam exercised that, and followed his wife in the eating of the "apple."
So, god either ordained Adam to screw things up for all of us, or he allowed it to happen, either way he’s a sadist.
I agree that God would have to be a sadist to ordain Adam's disobedience. But how would allowing Adam to exercise the free will that God created him with, for a reason, be sadistic? God loved His creation enough to give them free will so they would love Him back. Why? Because He didn't want robots or puppets. He knew this would come at a price. And when He saw the effects of that price He was grieved. And, at one point, He repented that He even made man. So, to take care of it, once and for all, He sent His Son. Whose blood cleansed sin from the earth. Of course, to understand what I mean, you have to understand my definition of sin. I'll explain this much, for now: All sin is forgiven. The grace is there, and so is the freedom. All that is needed is to know it. And I don't mean head knowledge. I mean, you must
know it. Beyond human understanding. Lean on God's understanding, and all will be made apparent. But those who do not accept that which has been given them, by either not believing it's there, or not believing they need it, are doomed to hell. Not by God's hand, but by their own choosing.
Then he created a pit of eternally burning fire in which to throw people like myself who refuse to believe without seeing, what a sin.
Wrong. Hell was not created for people. Hell existed before Adam and Eve even ate the fruit of the tree. It was not for mankind. It was for the rebellious angels. Those who were pissed that man was favored over them. And, Satan [the adversary], being even more pissed off that he lost, tempted mankind, in hopes that they too would be cut off from God, forever. And when they weren't, Satan was enraged. So he continues trying to lead people to hell. And, for the longest time, he worked by tempting them away from the law of God. But God had a plan that would not fail. He sacraficede Himself to do away with the law, and allow for the entire human race to be sanctified. And Satan couldn't do anything about it. So now he tempts people away from Christ. Mostly by lying to them, and gettign them to believe God's not there, and if He was He would prove it. And also, by getting them to believe they aren't good enough, or that they are. But the truth is that only the righteous can enter heaven. And no one is righteous. God imputes righteousness on those whose faith is in Him. Satan decieves people, and makes them think their sin keeps the from God. When all the while, the truth is, their sin is forgiven.
It’s truly worthy of eternal hell fire. Sarcasm
There's only one place that is apart from God. And if you don't want to be with him, where do you think you're going to go? God sends no one to hell. They choose to go.
My grandmother, the sweetest most wonderful person in the world is now in hell, burning for eternity because she didn’t believe in your god, a god who will cast me into hell because I asked him to make my pen spin around on my desk.
Nope. God doesn't send anyone to hell. And if you think your grandma was good enough, then you don't know what good enough is. There is no such thing as good enough. Hell is full of good people. But there is no one righteous in hell. The righteous go to heaven, and it is only they who can enter its gastes.
You worship a god who requires you to be in constant communication with him, he requires you to remain on your toes at all times examining yourself for the slightest “sin” and then makes you dependant on his forgiveness lest you reap curses from him.
That's not my God. My God has freed me from sin. I am not condemned for my failings. I am forgiven! His forgiveness is a done deal. I no longer need to seek His forgiveness, for it is already mine. My sins are cleansed, and I am righteous. That is what the blood of Christ did for me. I used to believe what you just said, but i was wrong...and so are you. And God does not "require" constant communication, either. He constantly communes with my soul. That is all.
These sins can be anything from the desire to accumulate wealth to the desire to look at naked ladies. Yes, LH, maybe you are free from sin, but your god was going to throw you into hell for looking at naked ladies. You may be free from hell and sin, but now you’re enslaved to god. I’d rather look at naked ladies.
No, he wasn't. He wasn't going to throw me into hell, or even allow me to go there. He did not condemn me for looking at naked ladies. He had already made me righteous, and cleansed me. And when I realized that, I no longer desired to lust...or do other things, as well. I am not a slave to sin, as I once acted. I am a slave to righteousness. I once believed I was bound to the sin of lust, and that I would suffer condemnation for it. But I was wrong. I was not bound, God ahd freed me! And I was not condemned, for I was in Christ. And knowing the truth made me free.
That’s really too bad LH. Pathetic too. The god described above, the sadist and his zombie son have you jumping through hoops and they won’t even prove themselves to you. If what you say is true you are a weak, pathetic little human and I do feel really bad for you. You can’t think for yourself, you can’t live for yourself. You think and live to the glory of a god that has never shown himself to you but requires that you dance his dance and walk his walk. It’s sad.
I jump through no hoops. And I am not the one walking. Christ is. He lives in me. I rely on His understanding, and I understand. And if I dance, it is for joy!
The only truth I see here is very tragic, very tragic indeed LH. You’re a puppet to a god that you can’t even prove is there. You’ve never seen him, you’ve never heard him, he only communicates to you through a soul in your body that is intangible, but belongs to him. You’re a slave to the invisible, the only voice it has is in the words of a book written by men whose identities remain a mystery to this day. I feel really bad for you, LH.
I'm not a Calvinist, prodigal. So you can't get me to believe that I'm a puppet. I know better. I choose God, because I desire God. Because He chose me. Yes, I am a slave. We all are. The difference, I'm a slave to rightoeusness. You're still a slave to sin, because you'd rather beleive in yourself than a god who condemns for every little misstep. And that makes you so blind that you can't even see that that isn't God. I don't believe in the idea of God that you thought I did, prodigal. I hope you understand that. To reject my idea of God is to reject the forgiveness that is yours.
My question still remains:
IF I had hard, empirical evidence, evidence that proved for a fact that jesus was a fraud, would you (all Christians taking part in this thread) cast off and reject your faith in him, or would you continue to believe against the fact that he was a con?
I would appreciate a direct answer.
Yours truly,
Prodigal
You will never find any such proof. Becaue it does not exist.
