ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[geralduk]

Originally posted by drdeutsch
Geralduk,

I state earlier in this thread that I always come to the Bible with an open mind. I allude to Jesus' teaching of "putting new wine into a new wineskin." Just because I am an OV'er without reading the entire bible does not mean that I won't change my mind later on when I read something contradictory to that view. I also stated earlier that I am here to learn.
Geoff said,

I do not believe that it says anywhere in the bible that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to atone for sin via crucifixion. If it did, it would destroy the point I was trying to make. Therefore, I was asking Geoff to point to a place in Scripture that might be unbeknownst to me.

I'm honestly not sure what the rest of your post has to do with this thread.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

I was trying to pont out that as the |Lord is/was "as a lamb slain from before the foundations of the world"
That He IS the LAMB of God.
That in one way or another the manifestation of Him as such would have come about.
For it was and is the plan of God for man to KNOW God as he is known.
The fall of man though NOT the will of God yet God was not fazed by it.
The foundations of our faith ALWAYS being in HIm and therefore oursalvation also.
The fall forseen by God,yet allowed so that God's will would be done,not through the first ADAM BUT THROUGH THE LAST.
The first being last and the last first.

 

[1013]

I was trying to pont out that as the |Lord is/was "as a lamb slain from before the foundations of the world"

Some translations do not even say this in Revelations 13:7, most notably the NASB.

No translation says "before". it is "from" which is the greek "apo" and can also be undertood as "ever since" just as it is in Luke 11:50.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Originally posted by drdeutsch
Geralduk,
You're right. Christ did rebuke Peter from trying to divert Him from it. However, Jesus prays three times to "let this cup pass from me" showing that, in His mind, there is still the possibility that it doesn't need to happen. If Christ knows full well, then this prayer is insincere and the entire passage is merely "soap opera dialogue" put in there to raise tension although we already know the outcome.
The three verses show that Jesus honestly believes that there is the chance for a different way, but no matter what He, like we all should, is willing to submit to the will of His Father, instead of attempting to fulfill His own will.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

DRD, thanks, that is exactly what I have in mind. Im arguing against the idea that Jesus was predestined to die from the foundation of the world and Im arguing on the basis of the sincerity and genuineness of Jesus' prayer in the garden which I understand as showing a genuine possibility of avoiding the cross.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Jesus says 'For God anything is possible' (such as preventing this coming event) - HOWEVER, dont do what I want (preventing this coming event) - DO what was your will IN THE FIRST PLACE (which was that Jesus would die on the cross).

I dont have any problem with Jesus submitting to the Father's will. That is already given. It already happened that way. But the fact that Jesus also genuinely wanted something to happen contrary to the original plan shows a possibility of what Im arguing for. As I've said, Im arguing on the basis of the genuineness and sincerity of Jesus' prayer. Let the prayer be finally dismissed as insincere and not truthful but only a show-off or a "soap opera dialogue" the I wouldn't argue anymore. I think it can only be said that my argument is ridiculous if what happened in Gethsemane was merely a "soap opera dialogue" as DRD pointed out.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Gerald of UK,

What is the meaning of the phrase "as a lamb slain from before the foundations of the world" ?

 

[Evangelion]

Good call, Edgar!

 

[geoff]

it is "from"

It doesnt matter if it is FROM or BEFORE... it doesnt change its intention. the world was FOUNDED.. and it wasnt until 6 days later that human beings appeared, so if you want to be picky about it, you're still wrong. Even if it was at the time humans appeared, they hadnt sinned, so God STILL destined Christ from BEFORE there was sin. Which means you're all wrong.

Im arguing on the basis of the sincerity and genuineness of Jesus' prayer in the garden which I understand as showing a genuine possibility of avoiding the cross.

My understanding of this prayer doesnt make the prayer any less genuine. And in fact, it makes it more in accordance with what we know about Jesus and his Mission. It also affirms the horror of dying the death of a sinner, abandoned by God.

Im arguing against the idea that Jesus was predestined to die from the foundation of the world

So you're arguing against what Scripture says... that doesnt make any sense.

 

[Jaltus]

I'd have to go with geoff on this one, guys. It is pretty clear that since the foundation of the world, namely Genesis 1:1, God knew Christ was going to die and why.

Frankly, it makes the OV less likely, though it does not preclude it.

 

[geoff]

Yup, either from or before... doesnt make any difference to me..
This alone might not defeat OV, but it certainly puts them on a slippery downward slide.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff and Jaltus,

Revelations 13:8 uses the same words (in English and Greek) as Revelations 17:8 and also uses the same word order. Therefore, 13:8 is translated as "names written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain [slain Lamb]" in both Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown's Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, and John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible.
Again, the Greek is exactly the same in both verses, only that in 13:8 you have "book of life of the Lamb slain" in between. Therefore, I find no problem with "from the foundation of the world" modifying "names"in Revelations 13:8 in order that it match Rev. 17:8. This fully supports the OV.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

The point is, DRD, that FROM means 'from Gen 1:1' - and that DOES NOT support the OV. As FROM would have to be FROM gen 3 onwards at the maximum.

To support the open view, it would need to read or imply: 'from the fall of humanity' - or 'from the time Adam sinned' or something along those lines.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,
Wrong. The point is that "from" modifies names and not lamb slain.
The point is that the names written in the book of life have been written there "from the foundation of the world," not that the Lamb [Christ] has been slain "from the foundation of the world."
Having the names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world does not harm the OV, but it does fully support the OV view that Christ was predestined from the beginning of the world, but God did not predestine Him to die until after the fall of man.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

Well, I doubt that, however Jaltus might like to comment.

In regards to names or Christ, either way it damages the Open View, because according to the Open View, those names can not be set in stone. If they are, then INDIVIDUALS are predestined.

Either way the OV has shot itself in the foot.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

Oops. Sorry. That's my bad. According to my translation, Rev 13:8 would read: "whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the slain Lamb."
Revelations 13:8 has a "not," which I forgot earlier. Apologies, apologies.
This means that their names were not written in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world. Obviously, some names were, but not all. The names that were not written, however, could be added later, which only strengthens the OV even more.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

Lol, try and find a verse that says ADDED... I know some that say names will be RUBBED OUT...

Never heard of a verse that says they will be added. EVER.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,
Does that mean that they cannot be?
At any rate, that the names were not written from the foundation of the world in Christ's Book of Life fully supports the OV view that Christ was not predestined to crucifixion before the fall of man.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

DRD,

Nice assertion, no evidence offered.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,
I've already offered all of the evidence. "from the foundation of the world" modifies "names" and not "Christ." This fits perfectly with Rev 17:8, which says "whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." It also fits perfectly with other scripture: It also allows Christ to be predestined before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20) and allows God to add Christ's crucifixion to his "determined purpose and foreknowledge" after the fall of man.
This fully supports the OV.

Geoff, I fear that without Jaltus, you are becoming the person I first confronted on this thread: he who accuses in an effort to deflect attention.
No evidence offered?
You never offered any evidence for Jeremiah 15:2 to start this thread. You merely said "self explanatory, I think."
I, on the other hand, have shown my view to be completely consistent with Scripture.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

lol, you havent shown anything... both jaltus AND I have explained to you how names and from and all this other baloney doesnt help you.

In return you said:
"At any rate, that the names were not written from the foundation of the world in Christ's Book of Life fully supports the OV view that Christ was not predestined to crucifixion before the fall of man."

Which is some how evidence to prove you are right. What it is really is just a restartment of your original unproven assertion, which has already been shown false.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,
I understand that you have studied long and hard and are quite unwilling to accept - or understand - any other view than your own. (Notice that earlier I said that I understood your position; I did not say I accepted it.) Therefore, I will lay this out once again in as simple a manner as I can.

Acts 2:23 says that Christ was crucified according to the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God. It does not, however, say when God decided that Christ should be crucified.
1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was foreknown from before the beginning of the world. It does not, however, say in what capacity He was foreknown.
On this basis, I argue that Christ was foreknown and predestined by God to be the King, the Anointed One. If man never sins, then it happens without an atonement. If man does sin, then it happens as the result of an atonement. We all know what happened.
However, you argued that Revelations 13:8 says that the Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world. I argue, however, that "from the foundations of the world" modifies "names" and not "Lamb," which would parallel Revelations 17:8 exactly.
In fact, the NKJV of Rev 17:8, upon closer inspection, says "whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world..." The authors, obviously, have chosen to have "from the foundation of the world" modify "Book of Life" and not "names." Going off of this, I'm pretty sure that a strong case could be made that the Book of Life is "from the foundation of the world" but that neither Rev 13:8 nor 17:8 says when the names were written in it. I'm not prepared to argue this right now, but it is besides the point.
My main point - and I do believe the point 1013 and Edgar are also trying to make - is that nowhere in Scripture does it say that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to die on the cross, which would support the OV.

You want support and evidence? Read the Bible. No, wait. Open your mind (Get it?) and read the Bible.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

p.s. I'm still waiting for your support and evidence for Jeremiah 15:2.