ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

Edgar Caiña

New member
I dont know, geoff. But to me it appears that Jesus was serious with His prayer. And if He really knew that it's NOT POSIBLE to happen, the only thing that bothers me is that why did He pray this way three times? The only implication I get from His prayer is the hope for the possibility of this cup to pass from Him.
 

geoff

New member
Edgar,

Again, it is neither the authors intention, nor Jesus' intention to show that it was possible for anything to happen other than what would happen. It is was, it would be a contradiction of Scriptures that prophecy the event, and others that say it was 'according to the definate plan and foreknowledge of God'.
 

jobeth

Member
Edgar:
I deny that everything that happens in the world is mere pretension or charade on the part of God. God has been very clear to state that He's the One in Charge, saying "I am the Lord". So if anyone is confused on that point, it is not God's fault.

So too, I disagree that there in no real or genuine accountability on the part of man to God. In fact, we are responsible to make our confession to God. It is to Him, by Divine Decree, that we must give an account of our deeds. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

My hope is that you would give a truthful account after the similtude of Job. That man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil of whom God said:

"My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

God has already spoken concerning the works of His hands, saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Evildoers worship not the Lord of Heaven and Earth, to whom be glory for ever. Nor do they seek to know the Lord, in whom we live, and move, and have our being; of whom, and through whom, and to whom, are all things. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

They deny that there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him who also said "I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. But men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

They despise His Authority and Government, Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of the saints.

The righteous know that all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, because we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. And we know that all things work together for good according to his purpose which He will accomplish when he shall have put down all who oppose His rule and authority and power, having proved all things subject unto Him.

For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

The wicked deny the truth we speak and will not hear us. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever, who serve their own lusts and rejoice in the works of their own hands.

So God has said, "I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands."

According to their works, meaning things done not of God, but of their own agency. For all workers of iniquity boast of themselves and repent not of the works of their hands, neither will they give glory to God.

Having forgotten that God resisteth the proud, but gives grace to the humble, saying "But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD."

Soby whom do they deny the Lord and His agency in all things? Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Why, then, if they heard have they no understanding? "They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

And so having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart, ( the times before of this ignorance God winked at) but now the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, and He commandeth all men every where to repent, saying " The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

This gospel was first preached by Jesus of Nazarath, the faithful witness, who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: whereof God hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is eternal life: To know God as He truly is, and to know Jesus Christ whom He has sent to bear witness to the truth by his own blood.
 

geralduk

New member
Originally posted by Edgar Caiña
Geralduk, exactly, it was the cup of death, and that was the very thing that Christ was praying that if possible be avoided.
It was NOT that He was avoiding death but that He KNEW that He must not die THAT night!
But tomorow!
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
Jobeth

Jobeth

Let me clarrify again your position. Do you believe that God is the cause of everything that happens in the world from the flying of a single particle of dust into the air to the damnation of souls to hell? Is this what you believe?
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
Geoff, I appreciate your inputs, but I still have questions. Again, geoff, why did He pray that way? What was His purpose of praying the same prayer not once, but thrice? If the author's and Jesus' intention was not to show any possibility for the cup of death to pass from Him, what was their intention? Was Jesus mere acting in that scenario? Was His prayer insincere and doesn't it contain any truth for us to believe in?
 

geralduk

New member
Re: Jobeth

Re: Jobeth

Originally posted by Edgar Caiña
Let me clarrify again your position. Do you believe that God is the cause of everything that happens in the world from the flying of a single particle of dust into the air to the damnation of souls to hell? Is this what you believe?

The problem in seeking to answer such a question is that the very question starts out wrong and to answer it in the negative or posotive would therefore be wrong also.

For the proposition carries so many OTHER points with it.
For instance.
Is He the cause of EVERYTHING.
when he is clearly not the casue of the evil in this world.
Yet also He has by His wisdom created the world and all the principles by which the natural world works.
So a person without understanding might argue that the floods,drought,and other terrible disiasters that are coming upon the world are His fault.
Not so either.
For the ROOT cause is mans rebelion and sin.
So to is it mans fault if he wills himself to hell.
For Though God created hell for the devil and his angels.
IF man will not folow God they are ultimately folowing the devil and will therefore finish up at the same place.
What men seems to hate? so much is the thought that God is bigger than thier sin and death.
That in the final analysis Sin and death are defeated.and the 'liberty' that the devil promises through sin,is no liberty at all but bondage that ultimatly leads to their destruction.
Men ARE free to do as thye wish,But let him not think we he will not have to give an account to what He has done.
 
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geoff

New member
Edgar,

The purpose in praying it 3 times is to reveal that it is impossible for anything but what was planned and destined to happen, to happen.

After 3 times, the reader/hearer should have it clear that it was a certain thing.
 

Jaltus

New member
Also, Jesus was not a moron. He really did not want to suffer and die, though He wanted the result.

How many children complain about going to the doctor, asking time and again to not have to go, even though they know they will end up going and they know it is for their own good?

Jesus was asking to be let out of the torture and horrible death suffered on the cross. If you think Him at all human, it only makes sense.

Does this support the OV? No, it supports the orthodox understanding of the Trinity and Jesus' as fully God and fully man. It does not fit one theological persuasion in regards to God's foreknowledge over another system.

Honestly, does it count against Calvinism or Arminianism that Jesus did not know when the end was going to be? No!

Why is that? Jesus was limited in the incarnation, as we all know. Therefore, trying to prove the OV by Jesus being human is just a misapplication and understanding of salvation-history.

EDIT: spelling
 
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geoff

New member
Jaltus.

You are entirely correct. I think though, the point Edgar is trying to make is that because Jesus 'asked' God to 'take away this cup' - it had to have been possible for the cup to have been taken away. Were this true, there might be some strength to the idea that the incarnation may not have been necessary, and then that God might not have known sin would occur.

BUT...

It isnt true, nor supportable.
 

drdeutsch

New member
Geoff,

Acts 2:23 says that Christ was delivered by God's determinate counsel and foreknowledge. This does not imply that Christ was eternally known or predestined (i.e. before the beginning of the world) to die on the cross. It is completely reasonable to see God's specific determination of Christ's crucifixion as originating after the fall of Adam.

However, 1 Peter 1:20 says "Christ, foreknown from the foundation of the world, but manifested in the latter times on your behalf." This verse quite clearly states that Christ was foreknown before the beginning of the world, but it does not say in what capacity He was known. This is where the crucifixion as a "contingency plan" (for lack of a better term) fits in. Surely God, set out on a plan of creation which included a genuine contingency (man's freewill choice to obey or disobey God) would think the entire thing out and consider all possibilities before acting, no? This bears a strong resemblance to the parable in Luke 14:28-32.

So, I find it completely reasonable to believe that God foreknew Christ as the King, the Anointed One. If man never sins, then that happens without an atonement. If man does sin, it comes to pass as the result of an atonement that Christ accomplishes (crucifixion).

I can pretty much figure out what you non-OV'ers think of this, but I'm sure you'll all delve into your Logos software and figure something out.

God bless you all,
Dr. Deutsch
 

geoff

New member
DrD,

The King, the Annointed one was to save, to put right all that was wrong with the world. Therefore Christ was known in his capacity as the one who would atone for sin, the one who is King, the one who would begin the end.
 

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
Why is that? Jesus was limited in the incarnation, as we all know.

However, Jesus knew the scriptures. If you want to go the route that Jesus wasn't omniscient therefore..., then its reasonable to conclude that according to his scriputural knowledge, this type of death may not have been neccessary according to what was written.

It seems to me that Jesus death on the cross may have been decided during his ministry when it was shown that the Jews would continue to reject God as the prophets. Perhaps it was possible that Jesus could've died another way. But the way that he died was to throw out red lights to the Jews to indicate to them that this fit Gods plan for ultimate atonement of sin. His legs were not broken, like sacrificial lambs where not. He was wipped and striped like the Matzah bread and peirced. Roman Soldiers gambled at his feet, and so on.

This verse and the following events seem to conclude that at most, the death on the cross was necessary by the time of the Graden of gethsemene, and Jesus not being omniscient would not have known that all other possibilities were gone.

I don't consider this proof for the open view, but it lends itself well to it.
 
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geoff

New member
It doesnt lend itself to the open view, as Jaltus said, it has no bearing on it at all, it lends itself to traditional trinitarianism and thats about it.
 

drdeutsch

New member
Geoff,

Do you believe that Christ as the Son of God couldn't have set the world right without dying? I haven't read the entire bible, but I would appreciate it if you'd show me where it says that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to die on the cross as an atonement to sin. If you can't, then I find my view completely reasonable.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch
 
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1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
Do you believe that Christ as the Son of God couldn't have set the world right without dying?

I think Paul says something to this effect. But of course that does not mean that it was predestined as God did not create a world that needed to be set right to begin with.
 

jobeth

Member
Edgar:
I am happy to clarify my position for you.

Yes, God controls everything. We know this is true, because our LORD told us "The Kingdom of God is at hand", meaning that the kingdom of God, where God's will is done, is here, now; a present reality.

Now Reason will demand, "If God controls everything that happens, then shouldn't He pay the penalty for all the sin and evil in the world, rather than us?"

To which the gospel attests: "He did". God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself, providing the World a Savior, who is Christ, the Lord. Jesus atoned for (paid the full penalty for) all the sin and evil in the world and by His blood hath obtained for us Remission (Forgiveness) of Sins.

Paul says this concisely:
2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us
to himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

But that is not all. That being accomplished, God raised Him from the dead and gave Him the right to Judge with all power and authority.

Here is how the Judgment works. It is by no means arbitrary, exclusive, or secret, but is based on what we truly believe in our heart, as evidenced by our public confession. (For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.)
1. Whoever says they know the LORD, but does not obey His commands, is a liar and the truth is not in them.
(These are sentenced to be tormented until they make a true confession. For God will by no means pardon the guilty.)
2. Whoever perceives the truth and knows God as He truly is, confesses their obedience to Him.
(These are given life, joy, and perfect peace. For those who do the will of God live forever and it is in them who obey Him that the love of God has been perfected.)

How can we disobey an Omnicausal God?

To recap:
1. God, our Creator, exercises Total and Absolute Sovereignty over all Creation.
2. God, our Savior, in Christ Jesus, provided Unlimited Atonement for all sin.
3. By His blood, Jesus, our Mediator, obtained Universal Remission of Sins.
4. God made Him our Judge, when He raised Him from the dead, and gave unto Him all Power and Authority.
5. Not by arbitrary, exclusive, or secret means, but through our own confession, shall the LORD of all render to everyone according to their deeds.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Those who do the will of God live forever!
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

drdeutsch

New member
1013,

Excellent point. God created a world and the Garden of Eden in a sinless state, exempting only the fall of Satan. The world that God created didn't need an atonement for sin.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch
 
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