ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[Surly-DwarF]

Jaltus,

Not only that, but if God can't foreknow the actions of man, He can't know that even if He does send Jesus to pay for our sins that a group of wicked men will condemn Him to death and specifically by crucifixion outside the city gates. And a lot of other junk besides.

 

[geoff]

Well, I say. Someone had their landing lights switched on round here for a change

 

[Jaltus]

Geoff,

Thanks, I think...

 

[geoff]

Well I dont mean that you dont NORMALLY have your (personal) landing lights on... just that its refreshing to find someone with them turned on.... it seems discussion here is a bit like, quoting from the band considering lily, 'driving down, pikes peak, at 90 miles an hour in the dark with the headlights off...' if you know what I mean.

 

[Jaltus]

Trust me. I have been arguing with Jerry.

If he ever uses the context of a passage, let alone using it correctly, I may have a heart attack.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

I can do MORe than predict, I can KNOW

Geoff, do you have perfect foreknowledge? Are you saying that you have absolute, perfect foreknowledge of some or even all events? Are you ever surprised? Wait, what a stupid question. Of course you aren't. You aren't predicting future actions, you KNOW them. To what extent do you exercise this power?

God didn't make a mess of it. Man made a mess of it. Therefore, God is not an idiot. I fail to see where your line of reasoning comes. I never said that. Because God has given man freewill to do what he wants, God is not responsible for our freewill actions. If man destroys the earth or breeds with angels or turns from God and sins, it is man's fault. God is not an idiot.

Good post, Geralduk. Gives me a lot to think about.

Jaltus,
You're right. I overlooked that fact. I'll have to do some more research. It by no means, however, disproves OV. Men are fallible. Men's theologies (including yours) are fallible. I made a mistake. Be reasonable.
I never said I was a Dr. or a Ph.D. The "dr" happen to be my first two initials. That they are also a well-known abbreviation just happens to be the luck of the draw.

Surly-Dwarf,
God predestined and therefore foreknew the life and crucifixition of Christ. It's up for debate, and I have not studied it to a great extent, but I'd be willing to admit that, in this instance, God exercised limited control of Pontius Pilate's (and others) actions in order that the Crucifixition would take place as God wanted it or needed it to. That would also not defeat OV. Again, I'd have to study that a bit more.

You all have very great minds and give me a lot to think about.

God bless you all,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[Surly-DwarF]

drdeutsch,

I appreciate your apparent open-mindedness, but I think that in about your last 3 posts, particularly the last one, you've given away the candy store. Insofar as I understand the OV (which seems to be amazingly ambiguous and amorphous when it suits) the points that have been raised in fact do defeat the OV. Though that's no real accomplishment, because as someone said, it really is self-defeating. Its proponents want to have their cake and eat it too, if you ask me.

drdeutsch God predestined and therefore foreknew the life and crucifixition of Christ. It's up for debate, and I have not studied it to a great extent, but I'd be willing to bet that, in this instance, God exercised limited control of Pontius Pilate's (and others) actions in order that the Crucifixition would take place as God wanted it or needed it to. That would also not defeat OV. Again, I'd have to study that a bit more.

How and why did God predestine the life and crucifixion of Christ if He didn't know that man would sin? That would seem to make no sense whatsoever. You say it's up for debate, and true, almost anything is theoretically. In my book, it's not debatable. Next, I shudder to think what 1013 would have to say about your idea that in this case God exercised limited control of Pilate and Co.'s actions. That notion doesn't defeat the OV? Ok, well, maybe I'm dense....

Buenas noches,

Mike

 

[geoff]

Jaltus,

Well the Paramedics heard about it, and they didnt seem worried, they went on holiday.

DrD:

do you have perfect foreknowledge? Are you saying that you have absolute, perfect foreknowledge of some or even all events? Are you ever surprised? Wait, what a stupid question. Of course you aren't. You aren't predicting future actions, you KNOW them. To what extent do you exercise this power?

I can certainly KNOW future events will happen, with certainty, and I can also PREDICT future events with certainty. If I can do it, why cant God? After all, His knowledge, wisdom, etc is far superior to mine. There isnt even a comparision, I am a creation of His.

In order for you to be right, you will have to prove that I can not know the future with any degree of certainty, and that does include prediction. Because if God can predict the future with perfection, He knows the future perfectly.

God didn't make a mess of it. Man made a mess of it. Therefore, God is not an idiot. I fail to see where your line of reasoning comes. I never said that. Because God has given man freewill to do what he wants, God is not responsible for our freewill actions. If man destroys the earth or breeds with angels or turns from God and sins, it is man's fault. God is not an idiot.

No, I didnt say that. I indicated that your view makes God an idiot because on one hand He SAYS he knows all the sin that has been and that will be (inherent in the Hebrew text of the passage), but on the other hand, he is surprised by it, as if He didnt know it, and has to 'change his mind'. And then, to make matters worse, He decides to destroy humanity because its so evil and he cant tolerate it, but all of a sudden this noah dude comes along and God has to back track AGAIN and let noah live, knowing that God is now going to look like a fool for letting sinful humanity continue on.

Then later, God says He is going to destroy Israel, obviously forgetting his own nature, and has to be reminded by Moses who He is, so that again He wouldnt look foolish.

What kind of a God is this? It seems He has Goldfish memory. Its just plain ridiculous, and OBVIOUSLY not what the passages are intended to teach.

 

[Jaltus]

DrD,

how about using DR D, then? Less confusion.

Trust me when I say I KNOW my theology is wrong. I think (especially in the area of eschatology) that theology in general is a lot of guesswork and working from behind, for it is finite, fallible man trying to undersatnd the infinite and holy God, something we are bound to screw up somehow.

By the way, I appreciate that you can admit when you are wrong. that makes you one of the few on this board. Welcome to the intellectually honest crowd! Trust me, there is plenty of room, invite your friends.

God bless,

Jaltus

 

[drdeutsch]

Jaltus,
It's a long story. At any rate, it's drdeutsch.

I make many mistakes. My theology is not perfect. I'm here to learn. Geoff, obviously, is not, but I appreciate your admission as well.
I can see that I must do much more studying!
Have a good weekend and God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[1013]

Many ov'ers do not believe that Jesus' role as redeemer from sin was in the plan before sin, or if it was, it was a contingency that may not have needed to have come into play.

Greg Boyd used to think this. but thanks to Dr. Sanders, he's come around on this one.

Ov'ers at least believe that the incarnation was part of the original plan but the sacrifice is contingent upon sin which truly may not have happened.

He can't know that even if He does send Jesus to pay for our sins that a group of wicked men will condemn Him to death and specifically by crucifixion outside the city gates.

of course he can know that. Not at the beginning and maybe not for a long time, but quite possibly long before it happened

 

[1013]

Greg Boyd used to think this

so I don't confuse anyone, "this" refers pre creation planned sacrifice.

 

[geoff]

DRD,

Oh I learn fine. However, I am educated enough to quickly assess what I need to assimilate, and what I dont, what is utter tripe, and what isnt.

I have in fact, learnt a considerable amount here. My views have changed considerably. When I started here I was a more extreme determinist than anyone but JoBeth.

I might seem arrogant to you, but I can assure you its not arrogance, its confidence. I know what I believe. Its simple. If you can prove me wrong, or throw me a curly one that causes me to rethink and do a bit of work (and a few ppl have), I will be the first to admit it.

Now, does that make you rest easier?
(btw, I have heard all of Sanders and Boyds arguments in 4 years, and many others, so far, none are convincing, or even a little bit scary)

 

[jobeth]

Geoff:
You said: "I can certainly KNOW future events will happen, with certainty, and I can also PREDICT future events with certainty."
No, you can't. You only think you can.

For the true prophet, God can and does CAUSE his predictions to come true.
On the other hand, say you make a prediction and claim you KNOW that such and such an event will definitely occur. Couldn't God then cause things to happen so that your prediction will fail?

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by jobeth
Geoff:
You said: "I can certainly KNOW future events will happen, with certainty, and I can also PREDICT future events with certainty."
No, you can't. You only think you can.

For the true prophet, God can and does CAUSE his predictions to come true.
On the other hand, say you make a prediction and claim you KNOW that such and such an event will definitely occur. Couldn't God then cause things to happen so that your prediction will fail?

PROHECY IS HISTORY WRITTEN IN ADVANCE.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

God so sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, that we have no choice but to obey Him.

It's not even a choice.

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Surly-DwarF
drdeutsch,

I appreciate your apparent open-mindedness, but I think that in about your last 3 posts, particularly the last one, you've given away the candy store. Insofar as I understand the OV (which seems to be amazingly ambiguous and amorphous when it suits) the points that have been raised in fact do defeat the OV. Though that's no real accomplishment, because as someone said, it really is self-defeating. Its proponents want to have their cake and eat it too, if you ask me.



How and why did God predestine the life and crucifixion of Christ if He didn't know that man would sin? That would seem to make no sense whatsoever. You say it's up for debate, and true, almost anything is theoretically. In my book, it's not debatable. Next, I shudder to think what 1013 would have to say about your idea that in this case God exercised limited control of Pilate and Co.'s actions. That notion doesn't defeat the OV? Ok, well, maybe I'm dense....

Buenas noches,

Mike

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Edgar Caiña
It's not even a choice.

Thats not true.

WHOSOEVER will believe.

If you do not believe you CANNOT obey.

That you have a choice TO believe is given every time we are challanged by God to do so and we know that also.wether others do or no.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

I see the crucifixion as something which was already in the mind of God (a plan, so to speak) and that He knew from eternity past how costly the price would have to pay for the redemption of man in the event of a fall. If that would happen (the fall), God's plan was to send Jesus to die on the Cross.

I dont feel it's necessary for one to believe that Jesus was predestined to die. Because if He was, it would leave Jesus no choice but to wait for the actual event. But Jesus and Paul gave us at least a little room to believe other than the view that Jesus was predestined to die.

"And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." (Matthew 26:39)

Unless Jesus was making a pretension here, I would have to believe that His mind was not completely sold to His approaching death as far as this scenario was concerned and that He was still seriously hoping that the plan, somehow, be aborted, and therefore, the idea of a predestined death was possibly not in His mind. It would be disingenouos for Jesus to make an appeal to the Father this way knowing that His death was already a sealed fate for Him. The fact that He prayed such a prayer means that in the mind of Jesus it was still possible for the Father to grant His request, but because He was very submissive to the Father, He let the Father's will be done.

"the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Corinthians 2:8)

If Paul's theology was that Jesus was predestined to die, I dont know how could he have said that.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Originally posted by geralduk


Thats not true.

WHOSOEVER will believe.

If you do not believe you CANNOT obey.

That you have a choice TO believe is given every time we are challanged by God to do so and we know that also.wether others do or no.

When I said, "It was not even a choice," I was referring to the quote,

God so sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, that we have no choice but to obey Him.

Because if God sovereignly controls all events, both mental (i guess that includes man's choice) and physical, then it's not really a choice. I think it's better said this way: God so sovereignly controls all events, both mental and physical, that we ARE PROGRAMMED (or controlled, or manipulated) to obey Him.