ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[geralduk]

Originally posted by drdeutsch
Geoff,

Do you believe that Christ as the Son of God couldn't have set the world right without dying? I haven't read the entire bible, but I would appreciate it if you'd show me where it says that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to die on the cross as an atonement to sin. If you can't, then I find my view completely reasonable.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

We must not come to the scriptures with preset thinking.
The trouble with these 'schools' of theology is they freeze the mind so that its almost impossible to see the scriptures in any other way that the HolY Spirit may so want to LEAD you.

To veiw the scriptures in the 'open' or closed' veiw therefore is wrong to start with!

The scriptures say that "He was as a LAMB slain before the foundation of the world"
Not that the fall of man was the WILL of God.For it was not.
For He revealed HIS will in that He told them NOT to eat of that tree.
But gave them leave to eat of the tree of life.
If they had not eaten of it they would have LIVED,that ALSO was the will of God.
"For if it was not so He would have told them"
But that there DESTINY then was to eat of the tree of life,why then if they would not have died why then the tree of life?
The scriptures are above ALL else the revalation of God.
His nature ,character and disposition.
Therefore it was in the will of God for them to KNOW Him even as they were known.
The ONLY answer for sinfull men is the blood of His cross.
For God cannot reddem men rightously but by blood.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geralduk,

I state earlier in this thread that I always come to the Bible with an open mind. I allude to Jesus' teaching of "putting new wine into a new wineskin." Just because I am an OV'er without reading the entire bible does not mean that I won't change my mind later on when I read something contradictory to that view. I also stated earlier that I am here to learn.
Geoff said,

The King, the Annointed one was to save, to put right all that was wrong with the world. Therefore Christ was known in his capacity as the one who would atone for sin, the one who is King, the one who would begin the end.

I do not believe that it says anywhere in the bible that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to atone for sin via crucifixion. If it did, it would destroy the point I was trying to make. Therefore, I was asking Geoff to point to a place in Scripture that might be unbeknownst to me.

I'm honestly not sure what the rest of your post has to do with this thread.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by geoff
Edgar,

The purpose in praying it 3 times is to reveal that it is impossible for anything but what was planned and destined to happen, to happen.

After 3 times, the reader/hearer should have it clear that it was a certain thing.

It is intersting to note that paul also prayed 3 times fro that thorn in his flesh to be removed.
That phrase is found also in the old testament and will I think give a better idea of what that thorn REALY was.

Prayer is the PRIMARY means by which the WILL of God is fullfilled.
For the first pettition of the PATTERN of prayer we are to folow is.."Thy WILL be done"

Therefore The Lords prayers in the garden was an ABSOLUTE and VITAL nescesity to the FULLFILLMENT of that will.
For He told the disciples to PRAY lest they fall into temptation.
"and He went a little further"

If He had not prayed He would have DIED in the garden.
Under the pressure and weight of the hour.
For His flesh in its own strength was not able to withstand it.
So He prayed that the cup of death would pass from Him THAT NIGHT.
It was NOT a fear of the suffering to come.
But the WILL TO WILL the FATHERS will.
So He submitted ALL and Himself to it.
and in so praying we read in PETER'S epistle that "In that He feared He was heard"
And we know when God hears our prayers ,our petitions are answered.
"So angels came and ministered strength to Him"
The apostles by sleeping allowed the FLESH to rule and not teh Spirit.so that when the hour of trial came upon them,they fled and were scattered.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

My thoughts regarding the prayer of Jesus was that the crucifixion was not predestined from eternity past. Because if it was predestined, there's no need for Jesus to pray such a prayer since it is sure to happen no matter what. And since it was a certain event to occur (known clearly to Jesus) in the next few hours, His prayer makes a lot of nonsense because His prayer reveals only one thing, that He was hoping for a possibility of not going to the cross contrary to geoff's assertion that

The purpose in praying it 3 times is to reveal that it is impossible for anything but what was planned and destined to happen, to happen.

The background of that prayer (Matthew 26:37-38) gives me the impression that Jesus was really struggling whether he would go for it or not. Also, the content of prayer, unless not truthful, gives me the impression that He was really asking the Father that if it is POSSIBLE to let the cup pass from him.

Im not trying to prove OV by Jesus being human as Jaltus asserted, rather Im arguing against this:

How can God know that He will send Jesus to be redeemer from the beginning of the world and yet NOT know about the fall? It is a logical impossibility.

Im arguing that the crucifixion was not apredestined thing from the beginning of the world. And that's the reason why I argue for the genuineness and truthfullness of Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane. Again, if His death was predestined from the creation of the world, and therefore He knew it clearly (because it was He who predestined it), then His prayer in the garden makes a lot of nonsense.

 

[drdeutsch]

Edgar,

I highly endorse your viewpoint. There is no Scripture, at least not to my knowledge, that says that Christ was predestined before the beginning of the world to be crucified. As I showed, Acts 2:23 shows that it was God's counsel that Christ be crucified, but God could surely add this to His counsel after the fall of man when sin enters the world. Likewise, 1 Peter 1:20 shows that Christ was foreknown before the beginning of the world, but it does not say that God knew He would be crucified at that time.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Jobeth

Jobeth

Jobeth,

I think you didn't clarrify it but rather made it more complicated. Here's why...

This one

Yes, God controls everything.

Contradicts this one

our own confession... according to their deeds.

This one

Now Reason will demand, "If God controls everything that happens, then shouldn't He pay the penalty for all the sin and evil in the world, rather than us?"

To which the gospel attests: "He did". God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself, providing the World a Savior, who is Christ, the Lord. Jesus atoned for (paid the full penalty for) all the sin and evil in the world and by His blood hath obtained for us Remission (Forgiveness) of Sins.

Plus this one

By His blood, Jesus, our Mediator, obtained Universal Remission of Sins

Contradict this one

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This one

How can we disobey an Omnicausal God?

That quote suggesting an impossibility to disobey an omnicausal God, contradicts this one

does not obey His commands

 

[Edgar Caiña]

So He prayed that the cup of death would pass from Him THAT NIGHT.
It was NOT a fear of the suffering to come.

Geralduk, are you saying that the cup of death was not the crucifixion, but the death that could strike Him that night because of His intense agony?

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

If you read the parallel accounts, you read: "Father all things are possible for you, if it were possible, I ask you to take this from me, and yet it isnt, let your will be done". (my paraphrase).

How do you support this with the Greek? I'm not a Greek expert, but I don't read anything like "and yet it isn't" in the parallel accounts.

Matthew 26:39 ""O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

Mark 14:36 :Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will."

Luke 22:42 "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."

This would indicate to me that Jesus thought it was quite possible that it be avoided. However, it also shows that Jesus does not have intimate knowledge of God's plan for Jesus. Thus, Jesus' prayer was completely sincere. The entire point of these three verses is to show that Jesus thought it possible, but that, no matter what, He was going to submit to the will of His Father.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geralduk]

Originally posted by drdeutsch
Geoff,



This would indicate to me that Jesus thought it was quite possible that it be avoided. However, it also shows that Jesus does not have intimate knowledge of God's plan for Jesus. Thus, Jesus' prayer was completely sincere. The entire point of these three verses is to show that Jesus thought it possible, but that, no matter what, He was going to submit to the will of His Father.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

Of courseHe KNEW FULL well the will of the FATHER.
He rebuked Peter fro trying to divert Him from it!
He also set His face like flint to go there!

 

[drdeutsch]

Geralduk,
You're right. Christ did rebuke Peter from trying to divert Him from it. However, Jesus prays three times to "let this cup pass from me" showing that, in His mind, there is still the possibility that it doesn't need to happen. If Christ knows full well, then this prayer is insincere and the entire passage is merely "soap opera dialogue" put in there to raise tension although we already know the outcome.
The three verses show that Jesus honestly believes that there is the chance for a different way, but no matter what He, like we all should, is willing to submit to the will of His Father, instead of attempting to fulfill His own will.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

Drd,

Those verses show quite clearly that Jesus knows that all things are possible for God, and that It wasnt God's will that this thing be taken from Him (ie that its not possible). See Jesus says 'not My will, but Yours, be done'. If it were possible, dont you think God would have found another way? It cost Him everything.

Lets paraphrase it again for you:
"Father, everything is possible for you to do, and I would that it was possible for me not to do this, however it is Your will that I do, so be it".

Does that help? its as clear as I can make it.

 

[Jaltus]

Did Jesus know everything during the incarnation? Obviously not, as He tells us that He did not know when the last day would be.

Are there other things He did not know? Probably.

Was Jesus predestined to be sacrificed for our sins? Yes, read Genesis 3:15-17 (can't remember which one). It is pretty obvious what it refers to there. Also, at the birth of Christ, Gabriel says that He will be called 'Jesus,' for He will take away the sins of the world.

 

[geoff]

Jaltus,

Its true He did not know everything, but I think its fairly clear that he did know there was no other option than the cross.. after all, it was the crux of his mission on earth.

 

[jobeth]

Edgar:
God controls everything - even our confessions, our deeds, and our thoughts.

So when I say "our own confession", or "their own deeds" or whatever, I mean you for to infer "according to God's will and agency" in all cases.

Think of it this way: God renders us according to our deeds as though our deeds were our own.

Pharoah hardened his heart, only because God first hardened Pharoah's heart.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

Perhaps I didn't ask my question clearly enough. Where do you find support for your paraphrase in the Greek? The three verses cleary indicate to me that Jesus thought that there was still a possibility, but that, no matter what, He was willing, just as we should be, to submit to the will of His Father, rather than attempt to fulfill His own will. I do believe you are inserting something into your paraphrase that doesn't belong there.

You also wrote "it was the crux of His [Jesus'] mission on earth." I agree with you, but I believe that God added this part of Jesus' life after the fall of man.

Jaltus, I'm not sure what you meant by quoting Gen 3:15-17. This is quite clearly after the fall of man. Again, I do believe that Christ was predestined to die on the cross, but you must agree that there is a difference between God predestining something [at any time before it happens] and God predestining something before the beginning of the world. It's just that I believe God predestined this specific part of Christ's life after the fall of man. So, I ask you again: Where does it say in Scripture that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to die on the cross? As far as I know, the answer is: Nowhere! Therefore, the OV stands.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

DrD,

The evidence is very clear in the text itself. If you look at WITHOUT the presupposition that God doesnt know the future, you will find it jumps out at you.

What you are doing is basically reading a meaning into the text, on the basis of what you think it should mean, rather than what it really says or can support.

If it did support your view in anyway, I would admit it... but the reasons for accepting it does are weak, if not non existant.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

You didn't offer any support for your view, you merely attacked mine.

If you look at WITHOUT the presupposition that God doesnt know the future, you will find it jumps out at you.

Geoff, if you look at it WITH the presupposition that God knows the future infinitely, then it will jump out at YOU. However, I don't believe you can prove Scripturally that God has EDF. There are far too many repent passages, unfulfilled prophecy, and likewise.

What you are doing is basically reading a meaning into the text, on the basis of what you think it should mean, rather than what it really says or can support.

That is exactly what I said you are doing. Don't turn this around on me. You study Greek, don't you? Jaltus studies it. Therefore, I ask my question again: Is there any support in the Greek grammar or in other Scripture to prove that Jesus doesn't believe it is possible? He certainly believes that "with God all things are possible." Likewise, Jesus is, as we all should be [How many times am I going to have to say this?], willing to submit to the will of His Father, rather than attempt to fulfill His own will.

If it did support your view in anyway, I would admit it... but the reasons for accepting it does are weak, if not non existant.

Geoff, you have not offered any reasons for accepting your view. Your reasons are "non existant." If you did offer any reasons, they must have been pretty "weak" because I passed right over and didn't notice them. By the way, I don't feel that this argument will help to further OV. 1013 pointed out that it doesn't further it, but lends itself to it well. You pointed out that it only lends itself to traditional trinitarianism. I do not believe that this argument is going to further either one of our beliefs. I'm only getting into this because I disagree with your paraphrase of the verse.
The crucial OV question is whether you can prove scripturally that Christ was predestined before the fall of man to die on the cross.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

DRD,

I'll let Jaltus answer that, maybe he can give us a literal translation.

My evidence is this, as I said before:

Jesus says 'For God anything is possible' (such as preventing this coming event) - HOWEVER, dont do what I want (preventing this coming event) - DO what was your will IN THE FIRST PLACE (which was that Jesus would die on the cross).

This implies quite CLEARLY that Jesus knew what God's will was BEFORE the event. Jesus is God, so OBVIOUSLY God knew what was going to happen BEFORE the event, especially as it was His Will.

Therefore this verse does NOT support the OV interpretation of it. NEITHER is it MEANT to support EDF. No one claiming EDF to be true should use this to support their vew, and OV can NEVER use it to support theirs.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,
Thank you. That was a better explanation. Now I can understand your position.
Likewise, I don't believe that either my interpretation or yours would support or destroy either one of our beliefs. However, I appreciate you for explaining the reasons for your paraphrase to me.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

Praise God for that (and I dont say that every often lol)