annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Are you planning to respond to zoo's post or not?
What happened to that "willingness to engage" with opponents?
Appeal to the Moderators: TOL is for Dialogue? Really?
- Thread starter Traditio
- Start date
- Status
Are you planning to respond to zoo's post or not?
What happened to that "willingness to engage" with opponents?
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Trad:
Can you simultaneously hold your faith and your racism?
Can you simultaneously hold your faith and your racism?
Selaphiel
Well-known member
My guess is that if he actually met Jesus of Nazareth without applying the sanetizing, domesticating, spiritualizing and whitening lens on him, then he would deem him as a foul smelling lesser being to be expelled from the west.
Racism trully is an example of the most foul, crude, ignorant and ridiculous of sins.
Indeed! After all Jesus was Semitic and a Jew to boot!
My "racism" isn't "doctrinal." The Catholic Faith tells us that all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God (contra Zoo, this doesn't mean that they look like God), and, as such, are endowed with an intrinsic dignity and worth as persons.
I don't deny these things.
If you examine the opinions of, e.g., the KKK and the Nazis, you'll actually see a "doctrinal" racism which asserts the intrinsic inferiority of other races compared to the white race. I don't assert this.
What Zoo "takes me to task for" is my asserting that all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, but that I don't wish to be inconvenienced by the mere sight of black people.
Is that perhaps a moral failure? Perhaps. But in the same way as not wanting to be bothered by the mere sight of anyone is a moral failing. There are any number of people that you don't want to have to deal with, AnnaBenedetti, as I am sure there are any number of people that Zoo doesn't want to have to deal with.
And frankly, I find the controversy that has been "stirred up" on TOL by what I've said a little strange. It's occurs to me that this has basically become the new "rape" and new "spousal abuse" controversy on TOL.
I haven't said that anyone should be mistreated on the basis of race. All that I've said is, as a general rule, that I don't like persons of (a) certain race(s) and would prefer a state of affairs in which I didn't have to deal with them. And there are compelling reasons for this:
1. It is only "natural" to prefer things that are like, akin to or proper to oneself. The Stoics actually had a word for this: oikeiosis. It's only "natural" to have greater regard for one's family than complete strangers, for one's country than for a foreign people.
2. In addition to this, statistically speaking, the black skin of black people provides for me a convenient stamp or sign of the likelihood of diverse accompaniments of things that I simply don't like and don't want to have to deal with. If you don't like Toyota cars, then you probably wouldn't like this particular model...you might of course, but the simple fact that it bears the Toyota name alerts you to the fact that you probably won't.
Personally, I find what "accompanies" the black "brand" to be distasteful, unpleasant, etc.
Aside from the fact that the "aesthetic" is off, it also carries with it the probability of a sheer lack of class, erudition, culture, education, a tendency for socially unacceptable and inconsiderate patterns of public behavior, etc. It also indicates the probability of an entitlement mindset, a deep-seated mistrust and racist attitude against white people, an unhealthy fixation on race and racial injustice, etc.
Not to mention that it speaks to the probability of a cultural and family upbringing and way of life that simply doesn't mesh with my own. What would the average black person and I possibly have in common?
Stereotypes exist for a reason, and it's not because people just like making up stories.
3. Blacks are a problem in the US. Do you really want me to talk about the correlation between blacks and crime, civil unrest, "bad" political views, etc?
This is not, of course, to assert that any person should be mistreated or treated with anything less than dignity, respect and kindness.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't care how black that cashier is, how long her fingernails are, how pathetic her attempts at coherent speech are and how much of the "black attitude" she has: one should be polite, smile and wish her a good and pleasant day, and strive, as far as possible, not to make her day any worse for the transaction.
Of course, would I prefer a society in which there are only white cashiers (and, in general, no black people)? Of course.
But that's a matter of taste.
And who are you dispute with me about a matter of taste?
I don't understand this weirdness portrayed in today's society where we have to expound on him having olive skin. Sure, but.. he was what we'd still consider among those light skinned- just because they made him even whiter to identify with, let's say, the Greeks, doesn't give one grounds to change that reality. He was basically white
The racial paranoia stops at Jesus, I'm not going to get anymore into that madness.
ClimateSanity
New member
Trad. You're issue is not with black skinned people. There are several black skinned people who do not share the characteristics you abhor. It's called ghetto culture.
What is troubling is that there are many white skinned people who are not cultured and would not share a thing in common with you other than contempt for blacks. Why don't you mention them as well?
What is troubling is that there are many white skinned people who are not cultured and would not share a thing in common with you other than contempt for blacks. Why don't you mention them as well?
zoo22
Well-known member
Why the hell do you people defend him. He's been doing this for almost 10 years. It's not "ghetto culture." It's race. He doesn't like people who are racially different than him. He's a racist. He says he doesn't even want to see black people. "The mere sight of them" is an inconvenience for him. He thinks Mexicans are dumber than him. he likes to make ni**er jokes. He wants black people sent back to Africa. He tells you he's racist and you still don't hear it. Does he have to go back to posting about how he admires Hitler for you to get it? Why do you people have some need to soften the fact that Traditio is a straight-up racist?
ClimateSanity
New member
Where do you get that I'm defending racism? Do you know what ghetto culture is? Read his last lengthy post. Does it match line by line with ghetto culture? If not, please feel free to point out what doesn't.
ClimateSanity
New member
He doesn't like people whose culture is intolerable to him. Place him next to Clarence Thomas or the fictional Mr Huxtable or any number of conservative blacks. You will find his severe dislike vanish.
zoo22
Well-known member
Of course I know what ghetto culture is. Get a grip. Traditio's racism isn't about ghetto culture. Traditio's racism is about non-white people, whatever their walk of life.
ClimateSanity
New member
Read his lengthy post. Highlight in yellow any part that is not part of ghetto culture.
I don't understand this weirdness portrayed in today's society where we have to expound on him having olive skin. Sure, but.. he was what we'd still consider among those light skinned- just because they made him even whiter to identify with, let's say, the Greeks, doesn't give one grounds to change that reality. He was basically white
The racial paranoia stops at Jesus, I'm not going to get anymore into that madness.
Um, no. We do not actually have any idea what Jesus looked like but given that He was born in the Mid East, odds are strong that He looked much more mid-eastern than European.
There's nothing objectively, inherently inconveniencing about seeing black people, so you're not being intellectually honest in that one-off. I don't know if you're covering a deeper animosity with it or simply haven't addressed it reflectively, but it's not a real answer on its face.
Two things. First, perhaps? As a Christian, especially given your doctrinal particulars, that's not a thing to leave in the "maybe" category. Secondly, you know that it isn't the same as not wanting to be bothered by everyone. By its nature it carves a particular group from that everyone and that implies a particular, distinguishable problem. Are you hiding that problem from us or hiding from it yourself?
Things that bother us do so for a reason. Being bothered isn't the reason, it's the response.
And rational people have reasons for the why.
No, Drake and a few people espousing racist nonsense and holding that conviction have caught their share over the years here.
You have a very liberal notion of mistreatment. Offering offense for no discernible reason, suggesting satisfaction at the prospect of deporting them, etc.
To your reasons then.
There's even a sociological term for it, but liking the familiar doesn't necessitate disliking the other.
It's a false front though, I'd imagine. What I mean is this: most of us associate by class. We congregate with people in similar social and economic circumstances, particularly on the social side of it. Within that context we tend to have more similarities than not. The other is much less controlled by pigmentation. So most of the people you come into meaningful contact with will be people more like you than not. So making race a mark of distinction is a bit peculiar.
Right. That's the ignorant part of your racism insisting on a rule without regard for any number of considerations.
Supra. I know many more blacks who wouldn't fit your thinking than do and among most who would I find it more a reflection of age and social situation, one echoed in the ignorant rednecks you don't mind rubbing shoulders with if they're playing guitars, apparently.
The problem with trying to speak for or pretend to have an understanding of a people you only just gave every reason to believe you spend no time among and have no serious, sustained connection to should be obvious...so why isn't it to you?
You see what you want to see and protect that projection by a lack of association. It's a neat circle you've drawn around yourself.
You don't meet the average anyone. You meet people.
The negative ones mostly exist because the other has a tendency to be demonized. It doesn't make that tendency reasonable.
No, they aren't. That's the racist in you taking over the controls of your noggin.
I want you to understand that where education is present and poverty isn't your complaints disappear faster than a Klansman at an NAACP rally.
There is nothing dignified, respectful or kind in your suppositions and want of consideration, in your disdain or the desired fruits of it.
By way of illustration:
Someone who, unlike you, grew up seeing the dehumanizing fruits of it and the tragic waste on all sides.
ClimateSanity
New member
Zoo. Trad is racist but the evidence is not what you claim. He spelled out a list of aversions about "black people". Many of those behaviors are not exclusive to ghetto culture, but he doesn't seem to be bothered by that.
His main issue with people in general is behavior deemed as intellectually inferior. He finds it in conservatives. He finds it in protestants. Yet, he has no problem dealing with these intellectually deficient people. Only the black variety is beyond the pale. Therein lies his racism.
His main issue with people in general is behavior deemed as intellectually inferior. He finds it in conservatives. He finds it in protestants. Yet, he has no problem dealing with these intellectually deficient people. Only the black variety is beyond the pale. Therein lies his racism.
..he was white. Jews are white.
This is the downfall of Edomite paranoia, right here as a perfect example. It's not a coincidence that it's only in this day an age..
zoo22
Well-known member
"Read and highlight in yellow?" Are you kidding? His lengthy post is a load of crap. You only need to skim it in the context of the other garbage he posts to understand that. I've been paying attention to Traditio's posts for almost 10 years. I pay attention to what people post, and to who they are. He's a racist southern twit with a mediocre philosophy degree, a bloated ego, poor reasoning skills, his nose in a comic book, and crap taste in music. He can't navigate grey areas, he has no sense of empathy, he cant grasp contradictions, and he's a racist. And he's told you that he's a racist.
It's the "ghetto culture" that Traditio objects to? No, it's really not. It's race.
"Highlight in yellow"? You've got to be kidding.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
Yes, your racism is a moral failing, one incompatible with the teaching of your faith.
Setting aside your recent apologia for beating a wife in the face until she's dead - we had a good long conversation about your racism in your Mexicans are Dumb thread, if you'll recall. I didn't know you in your Hitler days.
You've advocated for deportation, segregation, and prejudicial treatment. How is that not mistreatment?
And why do you love song lyrics that celebrate mistreatment? Where your treasure is, there your heart is also.
How about your regard for their intrinsic worth and dignity as human beings?
Stereotypes are what you believe, and they can be good or bad, accurate or inaccurate. Prejudice is how you feel, so when you veer into prejudice, you're not being rational. You're going on feelings, and you of all people should understand that you're reasoning from emotion. Discrimination is acting on your feelings. You've advocation actions which you've justified by your feelings. There is no rationality there.
Discrimination and bigotry are a problem in the U.S.
Well of course it is your assertion. And of course you're asserting.
I'll dispute your trying to pretend your racism is only a matter of "taste."
Last edited:
Meh
Since when did being as green as green can be become some moral supremacy :think:
Because that's what Trad is dealing with on here- everyone's green philosophy. One would think after a certain age and amount of experience, one's outlook would turn brown. But, nope, not here
Since when did being as green as green can be become some moral supremacy :think:
Because that's what Trad is dealing with on here- everyone's green philosophy. One would think after a certain age and amount of experience, one's outlook would turn brown. But, nope, not here
ClimateSanity
New member
I judge a person by how they relate to people; not the beliefs they hold. You judge people by how politically correct they are. Racism is a huge sin to the politically correct. Evil behavior in interpersonal relationships is a huge sin to me. I agree that his racism is ugly but ,unlike you, I don't reduce a person to a single weakness. There is more to trad than his racism. We don't know what your weakness is. Pride in your own " goodness" is one that comes through here on TOL. To me, moral pride is much worse than racism and miles worse than racism that does no harm to anyone. Can you think of anyone who is possibly hurt by trads racism? I can think of someone who could be possibly hurt by that hateful diatribe you just directed at him. Only those obsessed with how morally clean they are in comparison to the "southern twits" have the ability to compose such venemous rhetoric.
- Status