Against abortion and against person-hood?

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
What is absolutist is your conviction that your opinion is an "argument from reason"
Sustained by the composition and the open nature of my challenge to consider its parts. Or, reason itself will tell you that the argument is from it. Whether it is sufficient or flawed is another matter and the nature of the challenge you have before you to meet or fail.

when in fact it is an argument from ignorance
If so it must be illustrated. Else, that's a declaration from arrogance.

I'm saying that the reasoning is flawed
Then it should be an easy thing to meet.

It is your inability/refusal to acknowledge this that is 'absolutist'.
Rather, it is your inability to address the particulars of the argument and find either flaw among the particulars or reason that overcomes them that remains your problem. As someone who once inclined to the right of Roe before considering it fully, I'm always open to merit. My personal objection to Roe isn't found in the argument to begin with, given the change in my personal context, so its failure would simply mean a different route and harder course. I prefer advancing the argument because it speaks a language that doesn't require faith, only an understanding of the law's context and the implications reason, I believe, insists upon.

I find it both interesting and telling that the only ideal greater than the right to life is the right to ignore that ideal whenever it's deemed appropriate, by you.
I think that's a silly thing for you to say. But you do that when your dander is up and it's almost always up when you speak to a Christian about a thing touching upon a moral certainty. It's the relativist in you, I suppose. :idunno:

Why do you assume that it's you and your reasoning that should be determining
Because reason doesn't belong to a person. Ideas may be voiced by one and good on them if the idea is well founded, but the idea and the reasoning of it remain the thing. Pull a name off a quote that is true or add it and the truth remains.

when and how this "abrogation of the right to life" occurs? And no one else? Because there are other people, and they have their own reasoning. And their reasoning is no more or less logical than yours.
If their reasoning contravenes my argument they should present it and decrease the surplus population, to borrow a bit.

The absolutism I was referring to is the absoluteness of your own presumed righteousness.
Given I constructed the argument as an atheist rationalist, that's a read-in of your own bias. Righteousness had and has nothing to do with the argument, except that from my current perspective it serves the good and the Holy. It wasn't meant to, but many a sound argument will have that impact where the matter itself is essentially entwined with moral gravitas.

You presume that what you see to be certain IS CERTAIN
Not at all. Rather, I present the contextual framework for how right is viewed in the law and address what is known and our obligation within both in how we address what either isn't known or may not be knowable, objectively. If it isn't certain the reasoning will out it.

simply because you see it that way. That is the absolutist's mind-set. Certainty and righteousness become one and the same phenomena, for the absolutist. And it makes them impervious to error or correction regarding most things, most of the time.
Well, I'm none of those things but you'll have to out argue the proposition to move me, not attempt to move me out of some fear of being associated with the unreasoned. Declarations of how you choose to see me to suit your bias are of no particular concern to me. They should, instead, concern you. I mean if you're dead set in them and consider your own premise. :plain:

Everything about your posts indicate otherwise. You stoop to surprisingly low means to dismiss any and every objection that confronts you
That's really not true, which is why you'll say it, maybe on some level really believe it, but never illustrate me doing it with, you know, my actually doing it.

That is not the mind-set of someone seeking discourse and objection.
That mindset is found in the invitation to examination, which presupposes response where warranted, rebuttal where reasoned and capitulation only when and if a deficiency on the point is framed. So far, over many a year and person, that hasn't happened.

It may yet, though I'm at a loss for how, given the requirement would be a standard that is self-authenticating, self-evident. Again, I think I've addressed the problem in that in various threads on the topic and possibly in this one.

:e4e:
 

PureX

Well-known member
Well....I guess decay could be seen as a "development" in a weird sort of "laws of thermodynamics" way. :)
If body development counts, absent complex brain activity, why shouldn't body decay also count, absent brain activity?

There's a complex set of concepts and ideas tangled up in this issue of 'personhood'.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Abortionists have been "killing" babies for who knows how long, and they were very common in America long before Roe v Wade. And before Roe, most of these abortionists were NOT properly trained medical personnel but dangerous back-alley ones, and who knows how many poor women died or nearly died because of them.
But since Roe v Wade, only a tiny handful of women have died because of LEGAL abortions .Far fewer than die every year from botched heart surgery or other medical procedures .
Anti-choicers have been in denial from the beginning. They never acknowledge the awful reality of life for poor women before abortion became safe and legal in America . And those dangerous, incompetent , untrained back-alley amateurs will become active all over America if our government makes abortion illegal again .
It's better for a pill to prevent a pregnancy than for poor women to have abortions . And women's bodies routinely eject fertilized cells anyway . A cell is NOT a person, and personhood laws are extremely dangerous because not only will they do NOTHING to stop abortion, they will INCREASE the abortion rate . These stupid "personhood" laws could make certain contraceptives illegal .
You can't have it both ways . If you are opposed to abortion, you have NO RIGHT to be opposed to contraceptives .And having our government provide them for poor women .
I agree that practical functionality is a significant factor that should not be ignored in favor of idealism, alone.

… Something that the ideologues among us have a difficult time acknowledging.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
If body development counts, absent complex brain activity, why shouldn't body decay also count, absent brain activity?

You know why, but absurdity is not something new to this board....I've used it myself. :juggle:

There's a complex set of concepts and ideas tangled up in this issue of 'personhood'.

Agreed....Thankfully, this is not one of them. :thumb:
 

PureX

Well-known member
Ever watch anybody die from Alzheimer's? The person I knew and loved was gone long before their body dies.
Yes, I agree. … From personal experience. And it really does cause one to consider what it means to be a 'person' vs a living human body. Without conscious self-awareness, and individual autonomy, there just isn't much a human person, there.

Very good point.
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
I agree that practical functionality is a significant factor that should not be ignored in favor of idealism, alone.

… Something that the ideologues among us have a difficult time acknowledging.

I don't see a single thing wrong with women having to perform their own abortion if they desire it. Natural law dictates that her blood be on her so that the reality of abortion be seen plainly.

As well
Men sitting there supporting institutionalized abortion is shameful. Men are the moral leaders, and since neglecting that everything has turned into absurdity.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Ever watch anybody die from Alzheimer's? The person I knew and loved was gone long before their body dies.

Yes, my maternal grandfather and an aunt. Does the condition make you love or value them any less than previously?
 

genuineoriginal

New member
How do you know this?
When does a new human life begin?
At conception.
_____
Prenatal Form and Function – The Making of an Earth Suit

Fertilization – Forming a Single Cell Embryo
Biologically speaking, fertilization (or conception) is the beginning of human development.1 Fertilization normally occurs within several hours of ovulation2 (some authors report up to 24 hours3) when a man’s sperm, or spermatozoon, combines with a woman’s egg, or secondary oocyte, inside a woman’s uterine tube (usually in the outer third of the uterine tube called the ampulla).4

Fertilization begins with the spermatozoon contacting the cells surrounding the oocyte and ends with the mixing of the 23 male and 23 female chromosomes.5 [More about fertilization] The result is a single-cell embryo called a zygote,6 meaning "yoked or joined together,"7 and it is the first cell of the human body.

The zygote, like the oocyte, is encased by its protective covering, the zona pellucida, [More about the zona] 8 and contains 46 unique chromosomes with the entire genetic blueprint of a new individual. Chromosomes contain tightly packed, tightly coiled molecules called DNA.9 [More about DNA] Amazingly, DNA contains all the instructions needed for this single-cell embryo to develop into an adult.
_____​
When does human life end?
_____
death
1: the end of life : the time when someone or something dies
2: the ending of a particular person's life
_____​
 

PureX

Well-known member
When does a new human life begin?
At conception.
_____
Prenatal Form and Function – The Making of an Earth Suit

Fertilization – Forming a Single Cell Embryo
Biologically speaking, fertilization (or conception) is the beginning of human development.1 Fertilization normally occurs within several hours of ovulation2 (some authors report up to 24 hours3) when a man’s sperm, or spermatozoon, combines with a woman’s egg, or secondary oocyte, inside a woman’s uterine tube (usually in the outer third of the uterine tube called the ampulla).4​
The beginning of human development does not logically definite the existence of an actual human being. It only defines the existence of the process by which an actual human being eventually comes into existence.

For example; and apple seed does not define the existence of an apple. It only defines the process that will eventually result in the existence of an apple, if followed through. That's why we don't call apple seeds, apples. And why we don't call fetuses, people.

Fertilization begins with the spermatozoon contacting the cells surrounding the oocyte and ends with the mixing of the 23 male and 23 female chromosomes.5 [More about fertilization] The result is a single-cell embryo called a zygote,6 meaning "yoked or joined together,"7 and it is the first cell of the human body.
Yes, but none of this defines the existence of a human person. They only define the blueprint, and the process that may eventually result in a human person. Just as the 'fertilized seed' is not an apple, but may eventually become an apple. … Or may not, depending on the successfulness of the process.

The zygote, like the oocyte, is encased by its protective covering, the zona pellucida, [More about the zona] 8 and contains 46 unique chromosomes with the entire genetic blueprint of a new individual. Chromosomes contain tightly packed, tightly coiled molecules called DNA.9 [More about DNA] Amazingly, DNA contains all the instructions needed for this single-cell embryo to develop into an adult.
Again, none of this defines a fertilized egg as a human person. It only defined the genetic blueprint, and part of a process that may or may not result in a human person.

Why you appear to be having such difficulty recognizing this simple and basic difference is a mystery to me. And I suspect to you, too.​
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
That happens at conception.

Says new age conservatives, which mostly nobody else before ever believed.

There was a pope who declared it murder, and then three years later another one outright nullified that notion. It was legal in America until the 1800's when society got all weird and heretical.

You all simply sit there and make a proclamation in which you have no backing for.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Yes, my maternal grandfather and an aunt. Does the condition make you love or value them any less than previously?

No, It just means that the person I knew has died before their body did. It happened to my uncle. He was a large man married to a tiny woman who loved him and stayed by his side despite the fact that he didn't know who she was and would hit her. My uncle would have never hit his wife but as the disease progressed, he no longer knew those that loved him best. Its hard to explain unless you've experienced it.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Ever have a child?
The person they were at 5 was gone long before they graduated college at 25.

No, its the same person, just grown. But all those memories from when they were five are still there. All those experiences at age 5 have formed the person they are at age 25.

Alzheimer's destroys those memories starting with the newest first.

Your comment is ridicules.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
The beginning of human development does not logically definite the existence of an actual human being.
Of course it does, unless you are trying to use a "No True Scotsman" fallacy as the basis of your argument.

For example; and apple seed does not define the existence of an apple. It only defines the process that will eventually result in the existence of an apple, if followed through. That's why we don't call apple seeds, apples. And why we don't call fetuses, people.
Do you actually expect to compare an apple seed to an unborn baby and an apple to an adult human?
Apple seeds do not turn into apples, they turn into apple trees.
The apple seed remains a seed until it undergoes germination, at which point it is an apple tree.

Immediately after conception a human baby undergoes a process like the germination process for plants, and that unborn human being is an actual human being.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
No, its the same person, just grown. But all those memories from when they were five are still there. All those experiences at age 5 have formed the person they are at age 25.

Alzheimer's destroys those memories starting with the newest first.

Your comment is ridicules.

Your desire to euthanize Alzheimer's patients is ridiculous.
 

PureX

Well-known member
My conscious self-awareness ceases every night.
Do I cease to be a human person each time?
Do I die every night when I go to sleep, only to be reborn each morning?
I'm puzzled why you would ask this when you know that with a simple touch, you would immediately reawaken. And that even as you were asleep, your consciousness was working out it's own immutable puzzles in your dreams, while your body rests.

This phenomena of dream-sleep is part of the experience of being a living person. A part that doesn't occur in fetuses or cadavers.

It's also an experience that other living animals experience, … animals that we routinely kill and eat. And even just kill for fun. So I wouldn't consider dream-sleep a particularly strong indicator of our respect for human life. Though it is an indicator of consciousness in general, certainly.
 
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