ECT Addiction/habitual sin Salvation Hope? No Hope?

[nikolai_42]

I selected the last option.

"Other". Sigh. (some of you will get it. )

Christian perfectionism is not possible. Christians struggle with habitual sin. That said, if habitual sin indicates absence of struggle, then no Christian can commit such a thing. From some translations using pattern of sinning note this is also referred to as habitual sin. That is, the same items that we are coming before the Lord over and over and over again, repenting over, and pleading to God for His mercy and echoing our desire to eliminate the sin. It's habitual sin. Clearly, this does not describe the unbeliever. The unbeliever would be in habitual sin, but would carry no sorrow for that sin, no struggle concerning that sin, said struggle including how it has displeased God, Who is infinitely worthy of our worship and obedience. Accordingly, it is not a matter of how frequently, but rather it is a matter of whether you are sorrowful of your sin and repentant of your sin (repentance necessarily includes seeking God's forgiveness).

There is a chasm of difference between a person who struggles against sin because he or she is not yet completely free from indwelling sin and another person who practices sin without concern. Sadly, the modern evangelical notion of the "carnal Christian" is a good example of very wrong theology; wherein they conclude that a person can continue to live in such a way that his or her soul is not yet yielded to Christ but he or she has notionally accepted Christ as his Lord. They practice sin without concern because they assume that they have a status within the Christian religion that gives them a pass to do so. James indicates a similar type of attitude in his epistle speaking about a man who claims to have faith but possesses none of the fruit which would attend genuine faith. The man is but a shell of profession, without actual possession. All talk.

A more pertinent question is "What about sin defines the believer or the unbeliever?"

If a man is in Christ then he is a new creation and sin no longer enslaves him. He is united to Christ in His death to sin and resurrection to life. A man who is not in Christ is still enslaved to sin and can do nothing but sin more or sin less.

A man who is in Christ is enslaved to Christ and struggles against sin which no longer defines or enslaves him. John, himself, recognizes this distinction because he says earlier in his first epistle that the man who claims he does not sin does not have Christ.

In the end, the difference is whether or not one is in Christ. A man in Christ is not defined by sin but by his union with Christ and all the saving benefits including how Christ will purify and sanctify him. A man who has not Christ is enslaved to sin.

Christians sin. Christians struggle with habitual sin. Christians, in their repentance, seek and are granted forgiveness for their particular habitual sin. Christians do not sin with regular, impenitent hubris as do the nonbelievers.

Consider Scripture once more. Therein we read that David did not quite struggle with his sin until a year after he lived and indulged in it. Was he unaware that adultery and murder were wrong? No. David's sinful nature overcame him for a long season of time and he was hardened towards the ways of righteousness. The influence of the Spirit of holiness upon him was lessened considerably during that time. Yet, that same Spirit was increased upon him again during Nathan's visit.

We believers have this waxing and waning of the Spirit's influence that ever accompanies the continual influence of the sin within us. While sanctification may not always appear progressive in a believer (e.g., David), nevertheless it will be continual and never cease. We must be careful here such that we are not giving licence to sin in discussing these things, and a way to excuse it. Rather, we wish to comfort the conscience against despair when a person sees that their case does not go according to the way they think their sanctification ought to play out. Our sanctification is in the Our Lord's hands, and He will give seasons of greater influence or lesser influence, as He sees fit, in order to develop our faith. We must attend to prayer for His working upon us, with humility, and acknowledge our continual dependence upon Him to do the work of sanctification within us.

AMR

Agreed about perfectionism...but a question for you. For what does the believer strive?

 

[Nick M]

Do you sin without a license?

 

[elohiym]

3 things listed are those under circumcision. They do not apply to me.

I wasn't posting them to you but to someone they do apply to.

Galatians 5 is uncircumcision and is about behavior after salvation while dead to sin.

Yes, that's why I cited Galatians 5:19-21 as being against a license to behave like that.

Shame on you.

Pffft.

 

[elohiym]

Do you sin without a license?

You shouldn't be sinning at all if you not under the law and Christ set you free from sin.

 

[Danoh]

The "addict" label is a snare.

Someone says, for example "I am a Doctore."

That is a statement about an aspect their sense of who they are, in this case, in their professional life.

This sense of who they are; this sense of Identity, manifests itself in various abilities and inabilities.

Called to war, this sense of who they are results in their finding them selves "simply unable to" take a life.

The statement "I just can't; that's just not how I see myself" is a statement of the power of sense of Identity on one's abilities and or inabilities.

What's happened as to these disempowering labels is that given that people tend to judge both their self and others based on their behaviors, the error of that has now become the norm within the Western Medical model.

A neighbor I once had announced to me one day "well, I've just been given a clean bill of health by my Doctor; my struggle with Diabetes is over..."

Curious, I asked her how that happened.

She said to me "well, I never allowed myself to see myself as 'a Diabetic,' I just refused that; I saw myself (Identity) as someone struggling with certain health issues brought on by behaviors I had allowed myself to indulge in. It was much easier to fight this for me, as a result. Because I never saw myself as 'a Diabetic.'

'I get that,' I said. 'I really do.'

Statements about sense of Identity are that powerful, in terms of the inner empowerment they allow one's being able to tap into.

Case in point of many, many others found in Scripture is...

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[elohiym]

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Echoed by Paul ...

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

 

[Nick M]

You shouldn't be sinning at all if you not under the law and Christ set you free from sin.

The cliché of sin without a license has a counter point. Do you sin without a license?

 

[elohiym]

Do you sin without a license?

The question makes no sense. I'm born of God. See 1 John 3:6-10.

 

[Nick M]

The question makes no sense. I'm born of God. See 1 John 3:6-10.

You are not resurrected. You are dead to sin if you believe Paul's gospel.

 

[PureX]

Well, that is not always the case. There are many instances where people have determined in their heart that it be so, and it is so. Life long tobacco habits, life long alcohol habits, life long over-eating habits, I've witnessed them all. Now, some harder drugs like heroin or meth I can't say I've seen those. Perhaps you are talking about those.

People love to believe in divine magic. People love to preach divine magic. But it's believing in divine magic, and then being horribly disappointed when it doesn't happen that drives more people away from God than anything else. So I think it's important that we don't go around preaching divine magic.

Yes, I have known people who were immediately and permanently relieved of their addictions. It is as if it were "divine magic". But the truth is I don't know why it happens for a small number of people, and not for most of the others. So I don't like to go around promoting the idea that people can be magically cured of an addiction if they just pray hard enough to God, or believe strong enough, or whatever.

I mean no disrespect, as I have seen these "miracles", too. They do happen. But I am advocating for honesty and realism, here, because addictions are a very serious, life-threatening form of sickness, and most people are not going to be 'magically cured'. Most people are going to have to surrender themselves to God and the Holy Spirit over and over and over again, as these are being manifested through their fellow Christian's love, forgiveness, and experienced help. And they will have to keep doing it for a long time until they eventually are changed by that process. It's not magic, it's hard work. But it will succeed if the addict keeps at it. And there is a point at which he/she will finally be freed from their addiction, as a result.

 

[Cross Reference]

People love to believe in divine magic. People love to preach divine magic. But it's believing in divine magic, and then being horribly disappointed when it doesn't happen that drives more people away from God than anything else. So I think it's important that we don't go around preaching divine magic.

Wrong. It is those who look to God as their 'shield and butler', those who go to church to receive from Him, to whatever degree, instead of worshiping Him in the Spirit of Truth for Who He is, GOD almighty!. In the short of it all, people go for human reasons, because of their otherwise unbelief in God. The 'human reason' church is all too willing to accommodate them. The "true pentecostal" is NOT of that persuasion. Thus Satan can have a field day with the "unlearned" such as you, both in and out of the Charismatic church.

 

[Danoh]

People love to believe in divine magic. People love to preach divine magic. But it's believing in divine magic, and then being horribly disappointed when it doesn't happen that drives more people away from God than anything else. So I think it's important that we don't go around preaching divine magic.

Yes, I have known people who were immediately and permanently relieved of their addictions. It is as if it were "divine magic". But the truth is I don't know why it happens for a small number of people, and not for most of the others. So I don't like to go around promoting the idea that people can be magically cured of an addiction if they just pray hard enough to God, or believe strong enough, or whatever.

I mean no disrespect, as I have seen these "miracles", too. They do happen. But I am advocating for honesty and realism, here, because addictions are a very serious, life-threatening form of sickness, and most people are not going to be 'magically cured'. Most people are going to have to surrender themselves to God and the Holy Spirit over and over and over again, as these are being manifested through their fellow Christian's love, forgiveness, and experienced help. And they will have to keep doing it for a long time until they eventually are changed by that process. It's not magic, it's hard work. But it will succeed if the addict keeps at it. And there is a point at which he/she will finally be freed from their addiction, as a result.

Whether lost, or saved, people have it within themselves to stop such a destructive behavior. The moment they tap into their sense of who they are, and refuse to focus on anything but that no matter the difficulty they are facing.

Even rehab programs deploy a great majority of their work with someone on refocusing them on what matters (that they had lost sight of).

The person has to reach a point, or be brought to one, where they are at the end of themselves. They then have a part of the "leverage" they will need if they are going to lift the great big stone they themselves created by what they had chosen to focus on and chosen to act on.

"We first make our habits...and then our habits make us" works both ways, be it in the making, the unmaking, or the remaking of our sense of self.

None of which is the gospel of our salvation, by the way.

Though said gospel does contain within it the means to change, when both properly understood and applied.

Note the change in focus, be it through the physical accompaniment another...

2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. 7:5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears. 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus; 7:7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.

Or in their physical abscence...

2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

To paraphrase one individual I once saw in an interview. When asked how he had been able to so (only seemingly) easy he had been able to give up a lifelong chain smoking habit he proudly replied "My little granddaughter! One day, as I was lighting up my fifth cigarette in a row, she ran up to me crying something awful and hugging me. I asked her what could have her so upset and she told me she that loved me, and that she was crying because she knew those things would kill me before she grew up, and she wanted me to see when she went to college one day... That tore such a hole in me, I knew I could never smoke again...And I never have since..."

People get all religious about such things at times and right off talk of "a Higher Power."

But even in Scripture - this side of "that which is perfect" - the issue is that of a Higher FOCUS...

The opening of Romans 5 or of Romans 12, for example.

Its simple...not...easy.

 

[Cross Reference]

Whether lost, or saved, people have it within themselves to stop such a destructive behavior. The moment they tap into their sense of who they are, and refuse to focus on anything but that no matter the difficulty they are facing.

Even rehab programs deploy a great majority of their work with someone on refocusing them on what matters (that they had lost sight of).

The person has to reach a point, or be brought to one, where they are at the end of themselves. They then have a part of the "leverage" they will need if they are going to lift the great big stone they themselves created by what they had chosen to focus on and chosen to act on.

"We first make our habits...and then our habits make us" works both ways, be it in the making, the unmaking, or the remaking of our sense of self.

None of which is the gospel of our salvation, by the way.

Though said gospel does contain within it the means to change, when both properly understood and applied.

Note the change in focus, be it through the physical accompaniment another...

2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. 7:5 For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears. 7:6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus; 7:7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.

Or in their physical abscence...

2 Corinthians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

To paraphrase one individual I once saw in an interview. When asked how he had been able to so (only seemingly) easy he had been able to give up a lifelong chain smoking habit he proudly replied "My little granddaughter! One day, as I was lighting up my fifth cigarette in a row, she ran up to me crying something awful and hugging me. I asked her what could have her so upset and she told me she that loved me, and that she was crying because she knew those things would kill me before she grew up, and she wanted me to see when she went to college one day... That tore such a hole in me, I knew I could never smoke again...And I never have since..."

People get all religious about such things at times and right off talk of "a Higher Power."

But even in Scripture - this side of "that which is perfect" - the issue is that of a Higher FOCUS...

The opening of Romans 5 or of Romans 12, for example.

Its simple...not...easy.

Danoh, when are you going to be honest and announce the meaning of your name is "Dunno"? You don't even begin to make any sense.

 

[Danoh]

Danoh, when are you going to be honest and announce the meaning of your name is "Dunno"? You don't even begin to make any sense.

Lol.

 

[Cross Reference]

Lol.

Yes, me too, LOL! You are all over the road.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Agreed about perfectionism...but a question for you. For what does the believer strive?

As we see from Romans 6:1-11, we are dead to sin, and alive to Christ. Redemption indicatively accomplishes a change of affections and empowers believers toward righteousness. It is that to which we strive.

AMR

 

[Danoh]

Yes, me too, LOL! You are all over the road.

Lol - ain't that the truth.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4625111#post4625111

 

[PureX]

Whether lost, or saved, people have it within themselves to stop such a destructive behavior. The moment they tap into their sense of who they are, and refuse to focus on anything but that no matter the difficulty they are facing.

Even rehab programs deploy a great majority of their work with someone on refocusing them on what matters (that they had lost sight of).

The person has to reach a point, or be brought to one, where they are at the end of themselves. They then have a part of the "leverage" they will need if they are going to lift the great big stone they themselves created by what they had chosen to focus on and chosen to act on.

"We first make our habits...and then our habits make us" works both ways, be it in the making, the unmaking, or the remaking of our sense of self.

None of which is the gospel of our salvation, by the way.

Addiction is not a 'bad habit'. Addiction is a compulsion that the addict cannot control. "Cannot control". That's the part that defines it as an addiction. If a person can stop by the power of their own will, even with great difficulty, they are not, by definition, addicted. They are heavy users, but they are not addicts.

You are correct, however, that an addict will very likely not be able to stop acting on their addiction until they have been broken by it. They need to reach that point where they know they must stop, and they know they cannot stop. Because only then will they surrender to recovery, and become willing to do whatever it takes to get some semblance of a life back. That surrender is the surrender of self. And it is at that point that a new person can be born and begin to grow. It is the person the addict would have been had he not taken the path to oblivion.

I agree with most of your comments, but I think you miss the seriousness of real addiction: it's literally, emotionally, and spiritually a matter of life and death.

 

[Danoh]

Addiction is not a 'bad habit'. Addiction is a compulsion that the addict cannot control. "Cannot control". That's the part that defines it as an addiction. If a person can stop by the power of their own will, even with great difficulty, they are not, by definition, addicted. They are heavy users, but they are not addicts.

You are correct, however, that an addict will very likely not be able to stop acting on their addiction until they have been broken by it. They need to reach that point where they know they must stop, and they know they cannot stop. Because only then will they surrender to recovery, and become willing to do whatever it takes to get some semblance of a life back. That surrender is the surrender of self. And it is at that point that a new person can be born and begin to grow. It is the person the addict would have been had he not taken the path to oblivion.

I agree with most of your comments, but I think you miss the seriousness of real addiction: it's literally, emotionally, and spiritually a matter of life and death.

Actually, I've been studying what compulsions are and how they work ever since I first read about them, as a kid, in Louis L. Stevenson's "The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde."

Fascinating subject.

Believe it or not, it is just a matter of rerouting the drive a compulsion motivates into action.

"Don't make me angry...you won't like me when I'm angry" - the late, Bill Bixby's - "Dr. Bruce Banner" in "The Incredible Hulk."

 

[Cross Reference]

As we see from Romans 6:1-11, we are dead to sin, and alive to Christ. Redemption indicatively accomplishes a change of affections and empowers believers toward righteousness. It is that to which we strive.

AMR

Indicatively?? What's that!? Where is that in scripture?? Rom 5:1 AMP is what happened to the already righteous, both living and dead..


Because of Redemption By Jesus Christ:

". . . . . .we] have [the peace of reconciliation to hold and to enjoy] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)." Romans 5:1 (AMP)