A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

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Agape4Robin

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Clete said:
That is not an answer. Do you or don't you accept the existence of antinomy within the Christian faith? Most Christians do so this isn't some sort of trap, I'm just asking.


I'm not talking about things that we don't fully understand like the Trinity or how God could have existed for an eternity into the past. I'm talking about opennly contradictory things which the theological community, Reformed theologians in particular, call antinomy.

an•tin•o•my
n. pl. an•tin•o•mies
1. Contradiction or opposition, especially between two laws or rules.
2. A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.​


It was a lot more than a good guess but it was nevertheless still a prediction; a prediction which God Himself could easily have helped to bring to pass (and probably did). God (Jesus) knew Peter better than Peter knew himself and so knew that he would not have the courage to face was about to happen. All that God would have needed to do was to bring Peter to someone's mind who had seen him before (which would not be difficult for God to do) and then once Peter had denied him a third time (he probably would have done it a fourth and a fifth and a sixth time, I think Jesus was being merciful by have said three), all God had to do was to tickle the throat of the nearest rooster. For God, all of this would have been really, really easy, no steeling a sneak peak into the future was necessary.
Further Peter could have chosen not to deny Christ. Had he done so, Jesus would have been astonished at Peter's faith the way He had been towards the centurion's or the Samaritan woman's faith. Peter would not have ruined God's reputation or fouled up the Bible for having done the right thing that night. The only difference would have been there would have been yet another passage in the Bible that Calvinist would be forced to call a figure of speech.


It was not intellectually dishonest. It may have been overly brief but I was at work at the time. Give me at least a little bit of a break here will ya? You know as well as anyone here that I do not play idiotic games like that.
I quite sincerely do not believe that there is any Biblical evidence that God knows the future exhaustively. There certainly isn't any passage that says "God knows the future exhaustively.", nor is there one that says anything like that. There are certainly plenty of passages that speak about God's ability to predict the future and that He has the ability to bring particular things to pass but that doesn't even come close to saying that God knows every event that will ever happen, it just doesn't say that. This coupled with the several instances where God makes a specific prophecy that never did and never will come to pass as stated is proof positive that God does not know the future exhaustively.
Further, as the last hundred or so posts on this thread clearly demonstrate, attempting to reconcile God exhaustively knowing the future with the concept of a free will almost immediately lands you in logical quagmire that cannot be escaped. The whole Christian faith becomes an incoherent mass of meaningless or self-contradictory nonsense.
God cannot know the future because the future is not knowable. The best that can be done is very accurate predictions but that is not the same as knowing for certain. Saying that God cannot know that which cannot be known does no injury to His "perfection" (in quotes because Plato's idea of perfection was stupid) or to His deity. Knowing the unknowable is a logically absurdity. God cannot do the logically absurd no matter how perfect He is. His not knowing the unknowable future does not more harm to His perfection than the fact that God cannot make perfect spheres with 17 sharp corners and 3 rippled sides.

Resting in Him,
Clete
The future cannot be known by you or me, but we are talking about God.

If Peter had free will, then why would God make the prediction and then "tickle the roosters throat" to bring it to fruition? Where is Peter's autonomy? Why do you think God feels the need to make a prediction and then "cause it to happen"? Then it is no longer prophecy, but a case of God basically saying, "Look what I can make you do."
 

Clete

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Agape4Robin said:
The future cannot be known by you or me, but we are talking about God.

If Peter had free will, then why would God make the prediction and then "tickle the roosters throat" to bring it to fruition? Where is Peter's autonomy? Why do you think God feels the need to make a prediction and then "cause it to happen"? Then it is no longer prophecy, but a case of God basically saying, "Look what I can make you do."
God tickling the throat of a rooster in order to make it crow at a particular point in time has nothing to do with making Peter do anything. Read my post again, I think you missed the point.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Jeremiah85

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Poly said:
Knight, looks like God predestined you to kick butt and take names on this thread. :up:
Kicking butt means ignoring logic and claiming that God is not perfect? You keep telling yourself that you won if it makes you feel better. Some of us have enough respect for God to understand that He knows everything, instead of limiting Him to what you think He wants to know. I am sorry that I have to be so blunt, but if you believe that God does not know everything, then He is capable of making mistakes and is therefore is not perfect. That is someting that I will not accept. I truly hope that this is not actually what you believe.
 

Freak

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Let's see if Clete will answer the questions.

Clete said:
That is not an answer. Do you or don't you accept the existence of antinomy within the Christian faith? Most Christians do so this isn't some sort of trap, I'm just asking.
Re-read my answer. You do know I answered your question, correct?

It was a lot more than a good guess but it was nevertheless still a prediction; a prediction which God Himself could easily have helped to bring to pass (and probably did).
It wasn't prophecy? Bizarre.


I quite sincerely do not believe that there is any Biblical evidence that God knows the future exhaustively. There certainly isn't any passage that says "God knows the future exhaustively.", nor is there one that says anything like that.

Questions for Clete:

1. Clete: If God were to "change his mind" about anything, this would mean by default that he failed to have complete knowledge (omniscience). Correct? You may ask Freak- why is this? Well, if a "change" became necessary for God, this would be a shortcoming or lack of complete knowledge.

2. Clete: any change in a perfect God-including a "changed mind"-would mean God changed to something less than perfect since perfection implies completeness, lacking no thing. Change for a perfect Being must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better. A "changing perfect God" is, therefore, a contradiction and fails to describe an all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God. Think about it. Would a perfect LIVING God change for the better?

3. Keep in mind, Clete, that a perfect Being can't lack anything that is characteristic of his nature or he fails to be perfect. Now, how does this relate to whether or not God can change his mind? Well, if God could change his mind, this would mean that his "conclusion" or "knowledge" prior to the change was incorrect. He would, therefore, not be the perfect Being that he must be by nature. Any change in God would be a violation of his attributes. Correct?

This is fairly simple, Clete, a changing God implies a incompleteness. A change for a perfect being (God) must be a change for the worst since a perfect God could not change for the better-for He is perfect.



There are certainly plenty of passages that speak about God's ability to predict the future and that He has the ability to bring particular things to pass but that doesn't even come close to saying that God knows every event that will ever happen, it just doesn't say that.
The apostle John, in speaking of the Lord God, states, that He knows ALL things. Ever read the Books John has written?
 

Agape4Robin

Member
Clete said:
God tickling the throat of a rooster in order to make it crow at a particular point in time has nothing to do with making Peter do anything. Read my post again, I think you missed the point.

Resting in Him,
Clete
That wasn't all I said, but allow me to add this as well.... You said........
There certainly isn't any passage that says "God knows the future exhaustively.", nor is there one that says anything like that.

True, but if you want to go that route, then there is nothing in the Bible that says God exists in the Trinity. But do you believe that God exists as part of the Trinity? Or do you deny that too?
 

Poly

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Jeremiah85 said:
Kicking butt means ignoring logic and claiming that God is not perfect?

Knight never claimed God isn't perfect. You resort to making false claims in order to make it seem like you have some kind of leg to stand on.
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Jeremiah85 said:
I have yet to see the Bible brought up in this discussion. The Bible teaches that God is perfect. Logic dictates that if God can make mistakes because he does not know everything that will happen, then God is not perfect. That is a dangerous position for a Christian to take. And btw, I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I never claimed that I was getting this from the Bible. This is is simple logic.
I cant believe you would say the Bible hasn't been brought up. I cited the Isiah verse that totally flew over your head and Knight cited one or two. The Bible INDEED teaches God is perfect AND that is correct. The problem is it is based on your logic. Or should I say Plato and Augustine and Calvin. You have been brainwashed by the teaaching of these guys. And I all ready know your not using the Bible, unlike Knight and myself, to come to your logical theories. Have a good night.
 

Clete

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Agape4Robin said:
That wasn't all I said, but allow me to add this as well.... You said........
The part about you having missed my point addressed the rest of what you said.

True, but if you want to go that route, then there is nothing in the Bible that says God exists in the Trinity. But do you believe that God exists as part of the Trinity? Or do you deny that too?
That's just the point A4R, there is mountains of Biblical evidence for the Trinity, real solid evidence that can't be explained away with any intellectual integrity. There is no such evidence for the idea that God exhaustively knows the future. It just isn't in there.
Stop responding to me as though I'm playing some juvenile game. I'm quite serious about this and have spent a great deal of time thinking this through and defending my beliefs both logically and Biblically. If you have genuine questions, I'm happy to answer them but taking pot shots for emotional effect will only serve to shut this conversation down.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Agape4Robin

Member
drbrumley said:
I cant believe you would say the Bible hasn't been brought up. I cited the Isiah verse that totally flew over your head and Knight cited one or two. The Bible INDEED teaches God is perfect AND that is correct. The problem is it is based on your logic. Or should I say Plato and Augustine and Calvin. You have been brainwashed by the teaaching of these guys. And I all ready know your not using the Bible, unlike Knight and myself, to come to your logical theories. Have a good night.
John Calvin circa 1618

Greg Boyd circa 1994

Gee.....which theology has stood the test of time? :think:
 

Poly

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drbrumley said:
I cant believe you would say the Bible hasn't been brought up. I cited the Isiah verse that totally flew over your head and Knight cited one or two. The Bible INDEED teaches God is perfect AND that is correct. The problem is it is based on your logic. Or should I say Plato and Augustine and Calvin. You have been brainwashed by the teaaching of these guys. And I all ready know your not using the Bible, unlike Knight and myself, to come to your logical theories. Have a good night.

They limit God, drb. They say God has no choice in the matter and that he has to know the future whether he wants to or not. He's not powerful enough to give man a true freewill and still maintain His glory.


Well, I gotta go watch a movie with the husband.

Take it easy all!
 

Agape4Robin

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Poly said:
Knight never claimed God isn't perfect. You resort to making false claims in order to make it seem like you have some kind of leg to stand on.
And here we go with circular reasoning.... :beanboy:
 

Freak

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Clete said:
I'm happy to answer them but taking pot shots for emotional effect will only serve to shut this conversation down.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete you're such the drama queen. :down:
 

Jeremiah85

New member
Poly said:
Knight never claimed God isn't perfect. You resort to making false claims in order to make it seem like you have some kind of leg to stand on.
You might want to read the last part of my post again. And perhaps you can show me where my logic is wrong?
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
Agape4Robin said:
John Calvin circa 1618

Greg Boyd circa 1994

Gee.....which theology has stood the test of time? :think:


Just because it is older means it's right?

With this logic, Gnostic is right that they are the real christians. Get with the program Robin.
 

Freak

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drbrumley said:
Just because it is older means it's right?

.
She was merely pointing out the obvious, Dr. Boydwannabe. Boydism is another passing fad that a fringe group of believers embrace. That's all.
 
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