A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
drbrumley
Well-known member
Ok, just when you think we are having a meaningful and thoughtful fellowshipping Bible Study, Jerry makes his sarcastic post, Freak puts his two cents worth and Geoff decides to join in the "we know better than you club." You three ought to be ashamed. Your not in this discussion to learn as I am or 1Way. Your here to mock what you do not understand and willfully I might add. So much for civility. The 3 Stooges are alive and well here on TOL!
And the funny thing is, an athesist who LEFT God is right behind them.:down: Wonder if that means something?:think: :kookoo:
And the funny thing is, an athesist who LEFT God is right behind them.:down: Wonder if that means something?:think: :kookoo:
geoff
New member
drb,
Would you like a reading list.. so you can catch up? Seriously.. no insult intended..
You should start with "Paul" by E P Sanders. And "What St Paul Really Said" By N T Wright. Then "Israels Law and the Church's Faith" By Stephen Westerholm (good summary of all the various positions at the beginning of this book).
Once you have read these, I can give you a more advanced reading list.
If you dont believe me, ask Jaltus or GreyPilgrim, if they are still around.
As for your insults.. ah well, I forgive you.
Would you like a reading list.. so you can catch up? Seriously.. no insult intended..
You should start with "Paul" by E P Sanders. And "What St Paul Really Said" By N T Wright. Then "Israels Law and the Church's Faith" By Stephen Westerholm (good summary of all the various positions at the beginning of this book).
Once you have read these, I can give you a more advanced reading list.
If you dont believe me, ask Jaltus or GreyPilgrim, if they are still around.
As for your insults.. ah well, I forgive you.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Ahhhhhhh, Jaltus. Let's see if I remember Jaltus. Oh yes. He ran from Bob Hill in a way older thread here. He also didnt respond to me at the other forum where he currently resides. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was to busy.
Ok Jerry,you want to have a battleroyal on this topic? Fine by me. Let's make it a tagteam or 3 on 3.It doesnt have to be a Battle Royal though. It can be HERE!
Shoot, someone give Jaltus the link and he can join you!!!!
Ok Jerry,you want to have a battleroyal on this topic? Fine by me. Let's make it a tagteam or 3 on 3.It doesnt have to be a Battle Royal though. It can be HERE!
Shoot, someone give Jaltus the link and he can join you!!!!
geoff
New member
freak,
Yes, NT Wright is a legend. I have heard him speak, seen a few videos and read everything I can get my hands on. He rawks.
drb,
is this some kind of competition?
Run away? Bob Hill doesnt scare anyone.. why would anyone run away? he's a lovely old (slightly misguided
) man.
Most likely, Jaltus probably got bored throwing out his pearls here, shook the dust off his feet and went elsewhere...
I know I sure did/do.
Yes, NT Wright is a legend. I have heard him speak, seen a few videos and read everything I can get my hands on. He rawks.
drb,
is this some kind of competition?
Run away? Bob Hill doesnt scare anyone.. why would anyone run away? he's a lovely old (slightly misguided
) man. Most likely, Jaltus probably got bored throwing out his pearls here, shook the dust off his feet and went elsewhere...
I know I sure did/do.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Wow, that's cool. Let me do the :bannana: :bannana: for you. Look Geoff, I'm happy you passed but if the seminary teaches what we are talking about wrong and you pass, then it is still wrong. Make sense?
This is not what 1way and I are saying. What we are saying is by Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, ALL people who followed God are saved, whether PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE. It is by his blood. Moses was saved by the Blood of Jesus. But it is foolish to suggest that he knew it when God called him. God gave him commands to give to Isreal, which he was part of that nation, and He had to follow.
An example. God said circumsion was neccessary. Moses decided for whatever reason to NOT circumsize his son. God was going to kill him for not doing it. The leader of Isreal, who saw God and his power in the burning bush, wasn't going to do what God had commanded. The only thing that saved his life was his wife went ahead and did the circumsion. Moses was going to throw away his relationship with God by not circumsizing his son. But God showed Mercy upon Moses when the circumsion was completed. Moses had faith, yes! And was saved by that faith. Yes! But he HAD to follow the law as God commanded. He had to show his faith. (works) That he didn't do. And it almost cost him his life with God. Does this make any sense to you? I pray it does.
In Christ,
DRBrumley
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Re: confession is good for the soul...
Re: confession is good for the soul...
I do understand what you are saying.But I cannot bring my mind into believing that even though Peter was saved by "grace" that "works" were necessary for his salvation.
That is because if it is of grace then it is not of works.
You just cannot seem to understand this simple principle.If someone must "work" for salvation,then this salvation is no longer a free gift.
For instance,the following words of the Lord Jesus Christ were spoken directly to the Jews,and there is no doubt that the Lord Jesus was teaching that "faith" alone brings everlasting life:
" He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).
And frankly,it does not surprise me in the least that those who deny the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ would revert to the practice of name-calling.I have been called worse than "swine" so your words will not cause me to back down or to go away.
In His grace,--Jerry
Re: confession is good for the soul...
1Way,
I do understand what you are saying.But I cannot bring my mind into believing that even though Peter was saved by "grace" that "works" were necessary for his salvation.
That is because if it is of grace then it is not of works.
You just cannot seem to understand this simple principle.If someone must "work" for salvation,then this salvation is no longer a free gift.
You keep repeating your misconceptions but that does not mean that I do not understand what you are saying.I am not arguing from my own preconceptions,but instead I am using the Scriptures to prove my point.
For instance,the following words of the Lord Jesus Christ were spoken directly to the Jews,and there is no doubt that the Lord Jesus was teaching that "faith" alone brings everlasting life:
" He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).
And frankly,it does not surprise me in the least that those who deny the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ would revert to the practice of name-calling.I have been called worse than "swine" so your words will not cause me to back down or to go away.
In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Brother DRBrumley,
I admit that I was being sarcastic.But I was doing that for a purpose--to get you to believe what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews:
"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).
If you are correct,then it would be impossible that the Lord Jesus would be telling the Jews that "faith" was all that was necessary for salvation.But that is exactly what He told the Jews.
Now if my interpretation of the words of the Lord Jesus is not correct,then I will ask you for a correction.
What is your interpretation of the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24 & 25?
In His grace,--Jerry
Freak
New member
Drbrumley, well...
Jesus speaking to the Jews said this:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
If the Jews under the Old Covenant believed Jesus, in light, of what He said here, would they attain eternal life?
Jesus speaking to the Jews said this:
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
If the Jews under the Old Covenant believed Jesus, in light, of what He said here, would they attain eternal life?
*Acts9_12Out*
Member
1Way and dr,
I apologize for joining so late. I have been very busy these past couple of weeks. I want you both to know that you are doing an excellent job and have both shown great patience with Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff.
What I find comical as I read the first 7 pages of this thread is, Jerry and Freak actually disagree. If you read their "proof texts" for "faith," you will see that they believe two different things. For example, Freak said,
Freak argues that "faith in Jesus" is all that is necessary. However, Jerry quotes John 5:24,
Jerry argues "belief in Him that sent Me" as the "faith" requirement. Which is it guys? Do we need to have "faith" in Jesus or Him who sent Jesus?
The problem with Freak and Jerry is they fail to understand that the audience in all of these passages understood that "faith" meant "faith in something." Freak even quotes a wonderful passage from John 8 above...
In this context, who does Jesus claim to be? The Jews listening to Christ in John 8 realize that Christ is claiming to be the promised Messiah that they have been waiting for. They needed to have "faith" that He was the Messiah, or they would not be saved. More on this in a minute. Jerry said,
It is plain Jerry? I love how you pick and choose what is "plain" and what is figurative. We all must have faith in something, and Gos decides how Hewants man to show that faith. Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff will all be hard pressed to find one instance where the Jews walking the earth with Christ ever "had faith in" His death, burial and resurrection for salvation. In fact, Christ outright tells Peter He is going to die, and what is Peter'as response? "Not so Lord!" (Matt 16). Jerry continues,
Nice try Jerry. You fail to realize that we understand the context of each of those statements. It is quite simple to quote a verse and say, "See guys? Plain as day!" I would like to challenge Jerry's contention that "faith / belief" is all that was necessary... BTW, a BattleRoyal sounds great to me...
Let's take a look at the 8th chapter of John (which Freak actually quoted from above). Jerry begins with,
Uh oh Jerry, looks like you got us... :nono: Let's reason together from John 8. The chapter opens with a woman caught in adultery. The scribes and Pharisees attempt to test Christ by challenging Him with the law of Moses. However, these men are hypocrites and judging her as such. In verse 7, Christ challenges them, and rightly addresses their hypocrisy. The "accusers" were convicted by their conscience and went out. Christ sends the woman on her way and commands her to no longer commit adultery. The scribes and Pharisees call Jesus to the carpet and try to discredit Him. In John 8:14-29, Jesus defends His "self-witness" and establishes that He is indeed the promised Messiah. In verse 24, He tells them that if they do not believe that He is indeed the Messiah, they will die in their sins. Yes Jerry and Freak, they had to believe He was the promised Messiah. There is nothing in this context that even begins to allude to belief in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation, or just have a generic "faith" for that matter. Now we come to the most interesting part of the passage... As Christ is speaking these words (establishing that He is the Messaih), many believe in Him.
What does Jesus tell "those who believed in Him?" They needed to abide in His word. Wait! I thought "faith alone" was enough! What the heck is Jesus talking about Jerry / Freak? It gets better...
The Jews who just believed in Him are now offended. They claim they do not need to be set free from anything.
Jesus answers,
Now, what happens to these Jews who recently "believed" in Him?
Now they seek to kill Him? I thought they just "believed / had faith" in Him and that was enough? It gets better...
<sarcasm>Wait a second Lord! Jerry and Freak say that "faith" is enough! Why are you telling them that if they were of Abraham, they would do the works of Abraham?</sarcasm> It gets better...
Huh? Ten verses ago, these guys "believed" in Jesus. Now they seek to kill Him? What gives Jerry / Freak? They even claim to believe in God and have Abraham as their father (Remember, Jerry said "faith in Him who sent Jesus" was enough). It gets better...
These guys "believed" in Jesus in verse 30. Now, Christ tells them they are of their father the devil. They do not believe Him. They are not of God (even though they said they were). The chapter continues with these "believers" challenging Christ. He goes on to tell them that He is God (v 58). What do these believers do? They take up stones to kill Him (v 59).
Jerry / Freak, what gives?
Again, the problem is, neither of you rightly understand that man must have faith in whatever God asks him to have faith in. God is Gracious to send His Son to die for mankind, but man must have faith. God asks man to show that faith in different ways. The Jews in John 8 needed to "believe / have faith in" the promised Messiah standing right in front of them. God asks us to "believe / have faith in" the death, burial and ressurection. It really is quite simple Jerry / Freak...
1Way and dr, keep up the good work!
--Jeremy Finkenbinder
I apologize for joining so late. I have been very busy these past couple of weeks. I want you both to know that you are doing an excellent job and have both shown great patience with Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff.
What I find comical as I read the first 7 pages of this thread is, Jerry and Freak actually disagree. If you read their "proof texts" for "faith," you will see that they believe two different things. For example, Freak said,
Freak argues that "faith in Jesus" is all that is necessary. However, Jerry quotes John 5:24,
Jerry argues "belief in Him that sent Me" as the "faith" requirement. Which is it guys? Do we need to have "faith" in Jesus or Him who sent Jesus?
The problem with Freak and Jerry is they fail to understand that the audience in all of these passages understood that "faith" meant "faith in something." Freak even quotes a wonderful passage from John 8 above...
In this context, who does Jesus claim to be? The Jews listening to Christ in John 8 realize that Christ is claiming to be the promised Messiah that they have been waiting for. They needed to have "faith" that He was the Messiah, or they would not be saved. More on this in a minute. Jerry said,
It is plain Jerry? I love how you pick and choose what is "plain" and what is figurative. We all must have faith in something, and Gos decides how Hewants man to show that faith. Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff will all be hard pressed to find one instance where the Jews walking the earth with Christ ever "had faith in" His death, burial and resurrection for salvation. In fact, Christ outright tells Peter He is going to die, and what is Peter'as response? "Not so Lord!" (Matt 16). Jerry continues,
Nice try Jerry. You fail to realize that we understand the context of each of those statements. It is quite simple to quote a verse and say, "See guys? Plain as day!" I would like to challenge Jerry's contention that "faith / belief" is all that was necessary... BTW, a BattleRoyal sounds great to me...
Let's take a look at the 8th chapter of John (which Freak actually quoted from above). Jerry begins with,
Uh oh Jerry, looks like you got us... :nono: Let's reason together from John 8. The chapter opens with a woman caught in adultery. The scribes and Pharisees attempt to test Christ by challenging Him with the law of Moses. However, these men are hypocrites and judging her as such. In verse 7, Christ challenges them, and rightly addresses their hypocrisy. The "accusers" were convicted by their conscience and went out. Christ sends the woman on her way and commands her to no longer commit adultery. The scribes and Pharisees call Jesus to the carpet and try to discredit Him. In John 8:14-29, Jesus defends His "self-witness" and establishes that He is indeed the promised Messiah. In verse 24, He tells them that if they do not believe that He is indeed the Messiah, they will die in their sins. Yes Jerry and Freak, they had to believe He was the promised Messiah. There is nothing in this context that even begins to allude to belief in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation, or just have a generic "faith" for that matter. Now we come to the most interesting part of the passage... As Christ is speaking these words (establishing that He is the Messaih), many believe in Him.
What does Jesus tell "those who believed in Him?" They needed to abide in His word. Wait! I thought "faith alone" was enough! What the heck is Jesus talking about Jerry / Freak? It gets better...
The Jews who just believed in Him are now offended. They claim they do not need to be set free from anything.
Jesus answers,
Now, what happens to these Jews who recently "believed" in Him?
Now they seek to kill Him? I thought they just "believed / had faith" in Him and that was enough? It gets better...
<sarcasm>Wait a second Lord! Jerry and Freak say that "faith" is enough! Why are you telling them that if they were of Abraham, they would do the works of Abraham?</sarcasm> It gets better...
Huh? Ten verses ago, these guys "believed" in Jesus. Now they seek to kill Him? What gives Jerry / Freak? They even claim to believe in God and have Abraham as their father (Remember, Jerry said "faith in Him who sent Jesus" was enough). It gets better...
These guys "believed" in Jesus in verse 30. Now, Christ tells them they are of their father the devil. They do not believe Him. They are not of God (even though they said they were). The chapter continues with these "believers" challenging Christ. He goes on to tell them that He is God (v 58). What do these believers do? They take up stones to kill Him (v 59).
Jerry / Freak, what gives?
Again, the problem is, neither of you rightly understand that man must have faith in whatever God asks him to have faith in. God is Gracious to send His Son to die for mankind, but man must have faith. God asks man to show that faith in different ways. The Jews in John 8 needed to "believe / have faith in" the promised Messiah standing right in front of them. God asks us to "believe / have faith in" the death, burial and ressurection. It really is quite simple Jerry / Freak...
1Way and dr, keep up the good work!
--Jeremy Finkenbinder