A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart

[1Way]

Jerry - You missed the last two points of my last two posts to you.

I said that God does not command and expect unreasonable things from man. God had a system for forgiveness back then just like He does now. That being the case, God’s repeated commands to “keep the law” for righteousness, for life, for salvation, was honest, sincere, righteous and possible.

God did not say that you had to obey His commands perfectly or go to hell, He said obey all of them
and
if you fail
and repent
and do what I command you to do,

then you will be forgiven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
God did not say that you had to obey His commands perfectly or go to hell, He said obey all of them
and
if you fail
and repent
and do what I command you to do,

then you will be forgiven.

1Way,

According to your idea the Jews who lived under the law will not be forgiven until they have lived a life of obeying the law.

But John tells them that they already possess a life in Jesus Christ that will never end!

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word "aionios",which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

This is what the Lord Jesus said about those who have been given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:28).

I do not see how you can miss the meaning of these words.And they prove that they already had their sins forgiven and they already possessed a life in Christ Jesus that will never end.This is so simple that it is hard for me to believe that you cannot understand that your ideas are in direct conflict with what the Scriptures actually say.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

precept upon precept, foundational issues matter, one doable step at a time

precept upon precept, foundational issues matter, one doable step at a time

Jerry – One train of thought at a time, please. We have been working on the idea about the Jews being under the law and what it means for them to “keep the law”. You wrote an entire post disagreeing with me, and then at the end of your post, you agreed with me.

Jerry, I don’t want for us to argue and argue and argue for no good reason, I want for us to try to help each other. We have a difference of opinion, and we both know that one or both of us is wrong, so hopefully we can work to resolve this conflict in a caring and straightforward fashion.

We almost had our differences nailed down concerning what it means to keep the law, and then you go change the topic to what it means to be saved, without even addressing our unresolved and ongoing discussion about “law keeping” and what that means.


I’ll gladly address your new points when we have time, but we have unfinished business to resolve. Back to our discussion where we last left off.


God did not command unreasonable or impossible things for them to obey and remain saved. They could not obey every law perfectly and continually, but God’s sacrificial system for forgiveness combined with the sufficient backing of His grace allowed for the “law keepers” to “keep the law” and be saved as long as they continued observing the law.

Do you agree with all that much? If not, please explain how so.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
They could not obey every law perfectly and continually, but God’s sacrificial system for forgiveness combined with the sufficient backing of His grace allowed for the “law keepers” to “keep the law” and be saved as long as they continued observing the law.

Do you agree with all that much? If not, please explain how so.

1Way,

The thing that you do not seem to realize is that the "sacrifical system" was for a people already redeemed and in covenant relationship with the Lord God.

The "sacrifical system" was put in place to keep the children of Israel in fellowship with the Lord.It did not provide a way whereby they were saved and that is because they were already under the blood of the Covenant (see Ex.24:5-8).

Before this blood was sprinkled on them,they could not even approach the mount where the Lord was.If they did they would be put to death.But after the blood was sprinkled upon the people there were able to have communion in His presence (Ex.24:9-11).

It was not until then was the Mosaic priesthood put into place in order to keep the children of Israel in "fellowship" with the Lord.So the sacrifical system had nothing whatsoever to do with their salvation but instead was in regard to "fellowship".

And we an see the same principle ast work in regard to those who received John's epistle.They already possessed "eternal life" (1Jn.5:11) but at the same time John tells them that sin breaks their fellowship with the Lord (1Jn.1:6).Sin defiles the Christian but if he will only confess the sin then the Lord will forgive that sin and cleanse him of the defilement which that sin causes.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

So you deny validity of all the many passages that say to keep God's law or be cut off from His people? Those who sin presumptuously died in their sin guilt, they went to hell. Again, I am NOT saying that their works of obedience to God's commands saved them, I am saying that the works of obedience were not optional, they were required. And secondly, that if you were a part of God's people, i.e. going to life forever with God, and you sinned against God presuming you did not have to obey God, then God says you will be completely cut off from Him and His people. Obey God and live, means disobey and have eternal damnation.

Maybe I’ll have to stop this for a while, this is going no where.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
So you deny validity of all the many passages that say to keep God's law or be cut off from His people?

It was in the people--the nation of Israel--where the Israelite enjoyed "fellowship" with the Lord.

Those who sin presumptuously died in their sin guilt, they went to hell.

Again,there is no evidence that the penalty of the "sin of presumption" is "hell".

Physical death does not always lead to hell,as the following verse demonstrates:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"(1Cor.5:5).

Again, I am NOT saying that their works of obedience to God's commands saved them, I am saying that the works of obedience were not optional, they were required.

Your reasoning is flawed.

You say that "works" were required for salvation,but that these "works" did not save them.

And secondly, that if you were a part of God's people, i.e. going to life forever with God, and you sinned against God presuming you did not have to obey God, then God says you will be completely cut off from Him and His people. Obey God and live, means disobey and have eternal damnation.

Again,the words in regard to the sin of presumption say nothing about being "eternal damnation".

You seem to have a difficult time distinguishing between being saved and being in "fellowship" with the LOrd.

Maybe I’ll have to stop this for a while, this is going no where.

But I answered the points which you raised.Do you not think that it is your turn to answer my points?

Earlier I said:

According to your idea the Jews who lived under the law will not be forgiven until they have lived a life of obeying the law.

But John tells them that they already possess a life in Jesus Christ that will never end!

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word "aionios",which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

This is what the Lord Jesus said about those who have been given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:28).

I do not see how you can miss the meaning of these words.And they prove that they already had their sins forgiven and they already possessed a life in Christ Jesus that will never end.

It is your turn to answer these points,1Way.I have already answered yours.If the words of John at 1Jn.5:11 and the words of our Lord and Savior at John 10:28 are not saying that the Jewish believers were already saved and possessed eternal security,then they must have another meaning.

I am asking you for your interpretation of the meaning of those two verses.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Jerry, the Scriptures are clear. Appreciate the clarity you have presented your case in. :up:

 

[Lucky]

Aw man, I can't believe I just found this thread! :doh:

I'll have to read it, but I don't think I'll jump in.

 

[1Way]

Jerry you are a lost cause. I corrected you and keeping the law perfectly, yet you have not shown the decency to stand corrected, I did not say nor imply physical death, the covenant relationship of the law and circumcision with Israel was NOT to stay alive physically, but to live forever with God, it was life eternal, and to violate God’s commandments meant not being saved. The breaking of the Sabbath passage by the man picking up the sticks said that He would be completely cut off from being part of God’s people, and his sins would be upon him. Do you argue with yourself too? I can just see you when you get to heaven, you will argue with God for teaching life eternal by keeping the law in the dispensation of the law.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

The braking of the Sabboth passage by the man picking up the sticks...

Your spelling is horrific. :down:

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

1Way,

As usual, outstanding! Post #135 was excellent. As usual, Jerry fails to respond to the fact that the man in Numbers 15 sinned presumptuously, was cut of completely, and his guilt was upon him when he died. Jerry would like us to believe that this man who was cut off completely, guilt upon him, lost only his "fellowship" with God, but was still saved... Unbelievable...

Jerry,

You continually quote 1 John 5:11. I will respond in full later... I recommend that you continue reading the following verses to gain a better perspective. With that said Jerry, take a look at the following passages (along with the numerous passages 1Way has shared)... *Blue is my emphasis...

Here's what you said to me (and 1Way)...

It is you who remains confused and not me.According to you the Jewish believers would not receive eternal life until after the end of a faithful life.But the Lord Jesus old the Jews that whoever believed Him already had eternal life and were already passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Guess what Jerry, Peter says exactly what you condemn me for saying which is quoted in blue by you above.

1 Peter 1:9
9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

Seems to me that circumcision believers receive their salvation at the end of a faithful life. This is why they must "endure to the end" to be saved... Remember, Jesus told them,

Matthew 24:13
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

This is a consistent theme throughout the circumcision epistles. In fact, John tells the circumcision that "those who overcome" will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life...

Revelation 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

This implies that those who do not "overcome" (remain faithful until the end of their physical life) will have their names blotted out. In fact, loss of salvation is a common theme throughout the circumcision epistles. Here are just a few...

John 15:1-6
15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Now, the context of these words spoken by Jesus are to the remaining 11 Apostles. Judas has already betrayed Christ, and has gone out from among them (John 13:30). Christ is admonishing the remaining 11 to continue to "abide" in Him, or else they will suffer the same fate as Judas. Judas is a great example of one who believed in Christ, and then fell away.

2 Peter 2:20, 21
2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Notice verse 20 Jerry... Peter is describing people who "escaped" the pollutions of the world by an experential knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. If they are "again entangled" in the pollutions of this world, "the latter end is worse than the beginning..." Why is it worse for them after they fall away? Because they can no longer be saved (Heb 6:4-6). Verse 21 expounds on this idea. Why would it have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them? Again, because they still would have had a future opportunity to become saved. How about another passage from Peter?

2 Peter 1:10, 11
1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Notice Jerry, even the "elect" of the circumcision must "make their call and election sure." If they "do these things" (the things described in the first 9 verses), they will never stumble. If they hang in there, and remain faithful until he end of their physical life, an entrance will be supplied into the everlasting Kingdom of Christ. Check your greek dictionary again Jerry... "Will be supplied" is in the future tense, which is in total agreement with what Peter wrote in 1 Peter 1:9.

1 Peter 1:9
9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

Stop kicking against the goads Jerry, and open your heart to what God's Word has to say. When God was dealing with the circumcision, He required them to show their faith n a physical way. If they "endured to the end," they would receive their reward for a faithful life. They would receive their salvation...

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
As usual, Jerry fails to respond to the fact that the man in Numbers 15 sinned presumptuously, was cut of completely, and his guilt was upon him when he died.

Jeremy,

I did respond to the verses in regard to the sin of presumption.But of course no one has an answer to what I said and instead of admitting that there is no answer I am accused of not responding!

But despite this I will answer again.There was someone in the church at Cornith who was committing the sin of presumption by "having his father's wife"(1Cor.5:1).But Paul does not say that this man was going to hell.Instead,he says that this man will receive the punishment of committing this sin of presumption which is "physical" death.But at the same time that man will not lose his salvation.Here are Paul's own words in regard to this man:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"(1Cor.5:5).

I am sure that that man died physically while his sin was unconfessed and forgivenBut according to Paul that man was saved nonetheless.

Next,I will go to the crux of our disagreement.Earlier I said:

According to you the Jewish believers would not receive eternal life until after the end of a faithful life.But the Lord Jesus old the Jews that whoever believed Him already had eternal life and were already passed from death unto life.

Instead of addressing the verses I provided you go to something else that you think answers the verses I gave.You said:

Guess what Jerry, Peter says exactly what you condemn me for saying which is quoted in blue by you above.

1 Peter 1:9
9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

At 1Peter 1:9 the word translated "end" can mean "the end to which all things relate,the aim,the purpose"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

So in effect Peter is saying,"receiving the purpose of your faith,even the salvation of your souls"(1Pet.1:9).

Jeremy,if you would have investigated the meaning of this verse you would have found out the the word "receiving" here is in the present tense.They have already received the purpose of their faith--the salvation of their souls.

The word "receiving" is translated from the Greek word "komizo,and that word is used here in the "present" tense.Here is an explanation of the Greek "present" tense:

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English
will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are
termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize
the event described as if the reader were there watching the
event occur. Some English translations render such historical
presents in the English past tense, while others permit the
tense to remain in the present.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1077206936-6626.html

So Peter is telling these believers that they have already received the purpose of the faith which is the salvation of their souls.This verse that you think proves your point only demonstrates that these men had already received the salvation of their souls.

Next,you say:

Seems to me that circumcision believers receive their salvation at the end of a faithful life. This is why they must "endure to the end" to be saved... Remember, Jesus told them,

Matthew 24:13
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

If we examine this verse in its context it is clear that the reference in regard to "being saved" means "physically saved".Just a few verses before the LOrd Jesus said:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake"(Mt.24:9).

The Lord's words at Matthew 24:13 are not in reference to "enduring to the end" in order to receive everlasting life,and that is because the Lord Jesus told the Jews that when they "believed" they were passed from death unto life and possessed eternal life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Next you say:

This is a consistent theme throughout the circumcision epistles. In fact, John tells the circumcision that "those who overcome" will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life...


quote:
Revelation 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

You prove that you do not undersatand that it is by "faith" and "faith" alone whereby one "overcomes":

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith"(1Jn.5:4).

The Jewish believers who received the Lord Jesus Christ were "born of God"(Jn.1:12,13) so therefore they can be described as having "overcome".And here is what the LOrd Jesus said about "overcomers":

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels"(Rev.3:5).

You continually quote 1 John 5:11. I will respond in full later...

Jeremy,you say that you will respond later to 1Jn.5:11.I am still waiting.Anyone can go back to my previous posts on this thread and they will see that I have answered fully and Scriptually to every single point which you and 1Way have made.On this posts I have answered several of the verses which you have provided.But now it is your time to answer the following verses that prove conclusively that the Jewish believers already possessed a life in Christ Jesus that will never end:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word "aionios",which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

This is what the Lord Jesus said about those who have been given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:28).

The Lord Jesus had already told the Jews that once they believed they were "passed from death unto life" and possessed "eternal life" at John 5:24.Now John tells these same believers that they already possessed a life in Christ Jesus that will never end.And the Lord Jesus Himself said that those who had been given eternal life "shall never perish".

If these words do not mean what they seem to be saying,then they must have another meaning.I am asking you for your interpretation of the meaning of those words.After you finish that then I will answer the remaining verses which you provided.

But now it is your time to give your interpretation of the meaning of John's words at 1John 5:11 and the words of the Lord and Savior at John 10:28.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

I have been waiting patiently for you interpretation of the meaning of 1 John 5:11 and John 10:28.It has now been five days since I asked you for your interpretation of the meaning of those verses.

Now that you are back and responding to other posts on this forum perhaps you will now give me your interpretation of the meaning of those verses.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Jerry,

You said,

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Jeremy,

I did respond to the verses in regard to the sin of presumption.But of course no one has an answer to what I said and instead of admitting that there is no answer I am accused of not responding!

Actually, you didn't respond. You pull the 'ol "but over here it says..." trick. You never told us what it meant in Numbers when it says, "that person shall be completely cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him." (Numbers 15:31b)

Instead of admitting that this man was completely cut off from God, you hope we will believe he was only partially cut off. He was cut off physically, but not spiritually? How is that completely? Secondly, what does it mean that he is completely cut off; his iniquity (sin) being upon him? His iniquity is counted against him, he's killed physically (not completely though) and still goes to heaven? Unbelievable... You think you responded by saying,

But despite this I will answer again.There was someone in the church at Cornith who was committing the sin of presumption by "having his father's wife"(1Cor.5:1).But Paul does not say that this man was going to hell.Instead,he says that this man will receive the punishment of committing this sin of presumption which is "physical" death.But at the same time that man will not lose his salvation.Here are Paul's own words in regard to this man:

How does 1 Corinthians 5 answer Numbers 15:32? I thought you were a dispensationalist Jerry... I hope you realize that God was dealing with this event in Corinth differently than He dealt with the nation of Israel. What's interesting is, by your logic, if this man would have remained in the church, he never could have been saved. He needed to be "turned over to satan" to be saved. Since this is not our topic, I will not exegete 1 Cor 5. We have enough to deal with as it is... You continue,

I am sure that that man died physically while his sin was unconfessed and forgivenBut according to Paul that man was saved nonetheless.

Actually, you're wrong. Paul never says this man "is saved." Paul hopes that he "may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." Huge difference Jerry. However, according to you, this man was already saved if he had "faith" at some point in his life. Unfortunately, Paul's admonition to "throw the bum out" was for his own good. If that man continued sleeping with is father's wife, he would not have been saved... Another interesting point is as follows...

Under the circumcision gospel, if a person sinned presumptously, he died in his sins. This is shown clearly in Numbers 15, which you have yet to respond to. Secondly, the author of Hebrews addresses this same topic...

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

If circumcision believers "sinned willfully" after they received the knowledge of the truth there was no sacrifice available for them, not even Jesus Christ. Their "hope" was a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and firey indignation which will devour the adversaries. Now Jerry, are you really going to try and say that this is a description of "physical death?" I sure hope not. Wait, it gets better...

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Let me guess... Those who reject Moses' law die physically, but are still saved, right? Maybe if you rub hard enough, you can erase "without mercy" from your Bible Jerry. :doh: Wait, it gets better...

29 Of how much worse punishment , do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Notice Jerry, this is referring to a person who had faith, was sanctified by the blood of Christ, but insulted the Spirit of grace. In your perfect world, this person somehow makes it to heaven... You continue,

At 1Peter 1:9 the word translated "end" can mean "the end to which all things relate,the aim,the purpose"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

So in effect Peter is saying,"receiving the purpose of your faith,even the salvation of your souls"(1Pet.1:9).

Jerry, are you serious? Before I pass judgement, I will give you an opportunity to save face. Feel free to post the entire definition of teloV "end" in 1 Peter 1:9. Secondly, show me just one translation that says... "Receiving the purpose of your faith..." Good luck... You continue with your exhaustive knowledge of Greek and say,

Jeremy,if you would have investigated the meaning of this verse you would have found out the the word "receiving" here is in the present tense.They have already received the purpose of their faith--the salvation of their souls.

Read what you wrote Jerry... If the tense of komizomenoi is present (which it is), then how can you say they already possess eternal life? Wouldn't that be past tense? Secondly, I would recommend that you do a little research on the usage of participles... You continue,

The word "receiving" is translated from the Greek word "komizo,and that word is used here in the "present" tense.Here is an explanation of the Greek "present" tense:

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English
will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are
termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize
the event described as if the reader were there watching the
event occur. Some English translations render such historical
presents in the English past tense, while others permit the
tense to remain in the present.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1077206936-6626.html

Um, thanks for the lesson... How long have you been teaching Greek Jerry? You continue,

So Peter is telling these believers that they have already received the purpose of the faith which is the salvation of their souls.This verse that you think proves your point only demonstrates that these men had already received the salvation of their souls.

Wait, I thought it was a present participle, not past tense? Feel free to teach me again... Concerning Matthew 24:13, you say,

If we examine this verse in its context it is clear that the reference in regard to "being saved" means "physically saved".Just a few verses before the LOrd Jesus said:

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake"(Mt.24:9).

The Lord's words at Matthew 24:13 are not in reference to "enduring to the end" in order to receive everlasting life,

I never said that they wouldn't be saved physically. You are wrong whan you say it had nothing to do with eternal life. That's why I referenced John 15:1-8... You didn't respond to that yet either...

and that is because the Lord Jesus told the Jews that when they "believed" they were passed from death unto life and possessed eternal life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Hmmm... Just like those described in Hebrews 10 & 2 Peter 2, right?

Concerning Revelation 3:5 you say,

You prove that you do not undersatand that it is by "faith" and "faith" alone whereby one "overcomes":

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith"(1Jn.5:4).

This is circular... Their faith was dependent upon keeping God's law. If they did not abide in His law, they were not "overcomers" and their names were blotted out... You continue,

The Jewish believers who received the Lord Jesus Christ were "born of God"(Jn.1:12,13) so therefore they can be described as having "overcome".And here is what the LOrd Jesus said about "overcomers":

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels"(Rev.3:5).

What if they don't overcome Jerry? I would say the believers who fell away in Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29 and 2 Peter 2:20,21 (which you haven't responded to either), were not overcomers, and had their names blotted out.

Jeremy,you say that you will respond later to 1Jn.5:11.I am still waiting.Anyone can go back to my previous posts on this thread and they will see that I have answered fully and Scriptually to every single point which you and 1Way have made.On this posts I have answered several of the verses which you have provided.But now it is your time to answer the following verses that prove conclusively that the Jewish believers already possessed a life in Christ Jesus that will never end:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

The reason I have delayed in my response to you Jerry is, I asked myself, "Is it really worth it?" You are an enigma to me Jerry. I agree with 1Way's comments about your arguing with yourself for the sake of arguing... However, I realize there are many "lurkers" here who read and may appreciate the efforts... So, here goes...

The theme of 1 John continually shows endurance. In fact, 1 John 1:9 shows continual confession of sins to be forgiven. The "If we confess" is a Present Active Subjunctive 1st Person Plural omologwmen. Since you know Greek Jerry, this shows that "confessing" is continual present action. Verse 9 is literally, "If we keep on confessing our sins..."

Now, if they keep on confessing, what happens? "He (Christ) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Since you know Greek, you realize that this is a 1st Class Condition. The "then" portion of the statement is true only if the "if" portion has been met. "If" they do not continually confess their sins, then the "then" portion will not come to pass. He (Christ) is not faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteouness. Due to lack of space, I will try to limit the proof texts. There are many more, but I'll hit the important ones... Notice 1 John 2:4, 5 Jerry...

1 John 2
2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

John says he knows who is "in Him" because they keep His commandments. Let's jump forward to your verse Jerry... I'll pick up the context...

1 John 5
5:6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
5:7 For there are three that bear witness
5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Now, what is the "Witness" described here? Jesus Christ endured water baptism and Spirit baptism "to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:13-17). The Father was "well pleased in His Son. Thirdly, Jesus endured the "death baptism" for the sin of the world (Luke 12:50). The "Witness" here Jerry is the three baptisms Christ endured agree as one.

5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

Again, God was "well pleased" with His Son when Christ "fulfilled all righteousness."

5:10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

Sounds good so far... Those who believe in the Son have the witness (water, Spirit and Blood) in them. This next point is crucial for your verse Jerry. Those who do not believe do not have the "testimony" that God has given of His Son. On to your verse...

5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Sounds good, doesn't it Jerry? The "testimony" is that God has given eternal life? This life is in His Son. How was this accomplished? Jesus was water and Spirit baptized to "fulfill all righteousness," and endured the "death baptism" so that we can have eternal life. Those three agree as one as God's witness and God's testimony. Let's continue reading the context (which I suggested you do)...

5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Jerry, what if they did not continue to believe? This describes perfectly the men in 2 Peter 2:20, 21 doesn't it? They had access to eternal life, fell away, and were lost. The same is true as described by the writer of Hebrews (6:4-6, 10:26-29). Let's keep reading...

5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
5:15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

When was the last time God answered a "whatever prayer" Jerry? He doesn't do that anymore does He? I hope you agree that this is because of a dispensational change... You continue,

The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word "aionios",which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

Ah, more Greek... Thanks...

This is what the Lord Jesus said about those who have been given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:28).

Yes Jerry, the "life" is eternal. God "gives" them eternal life. However, as I've already shown, they were not secure. They could "stop believing" and lose eternal life. Concerning John 10:28, you are right... No man shall pluck one possessing eternal life out of God's hand. However, using that same analogy, a circumcision believer who possessed eternal life could jump out of God's hand and lose it...

The Lord Jesus had already told the Jews that once they believed they were "passed from death unto life" and possessed "eternal life" at John 5:24.Now John tells these same believers that they already possessed a life in Christ Jesus that will never end.And the Lord Jesus Himself said that those who had been given eternal life "shall never perish".

Again Jerry, their salvation was not secure. They possessed eternal life as long as they remained faithful. Again, Christ admonished the 11 to continue to abide in Him, or they would be lost. Judas was saved, fell away, and will be burned...

If these words do not mean what they seem to be saying,then they must have another meaning.I am asking you for your interpretation of the meaning of those words.After you finish that then I will answer the remaining verses which you provided.

I just responded. Now, I'll wait for a thorough response from you...

One more passage to throw into the mix Jerry... It seems that Peter understood "doing works of righteousness" to be accepted by God...

Acts 10
10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Was Peter wrong too Jerry?

In Christ,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Jerry,
However, using that same analogy, a circumcision believer who possessed eternal life could jump out of God's hand and lose it...

In Christ,
--Jeremy Finkenbinder

You say this despite what Jesus Christ Himself declared:

...that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Jesus was speaking to those under the Law and was pretty clear that simple belief in Him would allow them the promise of never perishing.

 

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Freak,

Try to offer something with substance. If what you say is true, then feel free to respond to the rest of my points. Unfortunately, you do not understand the conditional nature of the circumcision gospel. If your verse is a supposed "catch all," then I ask you also to respond to John 15:1-6.

I'll even help you out a little... Jesus is speaking to the remaining 11 Apostles. Judas "went out" in John 13:30. Here's what Christ tells the remaining 11 Apostles...

John 15
15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Now, Freak, if they "have eternal life" and "will never perish," why does Jesus warn them to remain faithful? They are in danger of suffering the same fate as Judas. According to your logic, Judas "has eternal life" and "will never perish" because he was at one time a believer in Christ. As I said before, you fail to understand the conditions set upon the circumcision.

While you're at it, feel free to respond to Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29 and 2 Peter 2:20,21. I know you won't, but it was woth a shot...

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

You say that you believe what is written in the Scripturers and then you turn around and deny what the Scriptures say.John tells the Jewish believers that they already possess a life in Christ Jesus,and he describes this life as being "ETERNAL"!

THe word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word ""aionios",which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

All you can say to this meaning given by a Greek expert is:

Ah, more Greek... Thanks...

Instead of answering as a mature Christian all you can say is "Ah,more Greek...Thanks".Jeremy,if you can provide any Greek expert that says "aionios" does not mean "without end,never to cease,everlasting" then I would suggest that you cite that expert.But instead all you can say is "Ah,more Greek...Thanks..."

With those types of responses how can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

But since that meaning does not match your ideas,you go about to prove that the life in Christ Jesus that can never end can indeed end!Unfortunately you put your ideas above what the Scriptures actually say.

You say that they could lose that life even though John says that this life they have in Christ Jesus is without end.Anyone can change the meaning of the words used in the Scriptures to make them fit their ideas.And that is exactly what you are doing.

If they could possibly lose their eternal life then that would mean that this "eternal" life was never "eternal" to begin with.But you will not be persuaded by what the Scriptures actually say.You just will not believe that "eternal" means "without end,never to cease,everlasting".

Here is what you say about 1Jn.5:11:

Sounds good, doesn't it Jerry? The "testimony" is that God has given eternal life?

Yes,it does "sound" good.In fact,it sounds so good that these men know that they possessed a life in Christ Jesus that can never end,despite the fact that you say that it can end.

You continue:

This life is in His Son. How was this accomplished? Jesus was water and Spirit baptized to "fulfill all righteousness," and endured the "death baptism" so that we can have eternal life.

Yes,you and I have a life in Christ Jesus that can never end.But you say that despite the fact that these believers have eternal life that their life in Christ Jesus can end!You throw your reason to the wind and then go about to prove that a life in Christ Jesus that is "without end" can in fact end!

Those three agree as one as God's witness and God's testimony. Let's continue reading the context (which I suggested you do)...

5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

First of all,the Greek word that is translated "continue" is not even in this verse.Secondly,the "New Scofield Study Bible" states that "the words 'and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God' do not appear in most of the early mss."

Therefore,the NLT,NASB,RSV and Darby's translation of the Bible do not even include those words.Here is the translation from the NASB:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life"(1Jn.5:13;NASB).

There are no "conditions" placed on this "unconditional" statement:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

In order to keep your false ideas you are forced to deny that "eternal" means "withourt end,never to cease,everlasting" and then you are forced to attempt to place "conditions" on an "unconditional" statements.

And here is what the Lord Jesus Himself says about those who have been given aternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:28).

Despite the fact that the Lord Jesus Himself says that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish you go about attempting to prove that they could indeed perish.You say:

Yes Jerry, the "life" is eternal. God "gives" them eternal life. However, as I've already shown, they were not secure.

You say that you have already shown that they were not secure,but you were forced to deny the meaning of the word "eternal" in order to do so.And despite the words of the Lord Jesus that those who have received eternal life "shall never perish" you say that they can perish!

I asked you to give me your interpretation of the meaning of this verse,but all you do is deny what the Lord Jesus Himself says!You continue:

They could "stop believing" and lose eternal life.

Again,if they stopped believing and lost their eternal life then that would mean that they never had an eternal life to begin with!

And how can one who believes in their heart ever stop believing the "truth"?Here is what John says about that:

"...all they that have known the truth;For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever"(2Jn.1,2).

So we see that you deny the meaning of the word "eternal" and then you go about to add "conditions" to "unconditional" statement so that you can attempt to prove that those who have eternal life can perish despite the words of the Lord Jesus that they "shall never perish".You continue:

Concerning John 10:28, you are right... No man shall pluck one possessing eternal life out of God's hand.

Why do you not say that I am right that those who possess eternal life "shall never perish"?

That is because if you did then you would have to admit that all your ideas concerning the eternal salvation of Jewish believers is in error.So you admit that a part of what the Lord Jesus said is correct,but you deny the rest!

However, using that same analogy, a circumcision believer who possessed eternal life could jump out of God's hand and lose it...

How could they lose it in light of the fact that the Lord Jesus said that they "shall never perish"?

You fail to realize that all those who have a life in Jesus Christ (life is in the Son--1Jn.5:11) are "preserved" in Jesus Christ:

"Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them who are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ"(Jude1).

So in summary we can see that in order to keep your false ideas you must deny that the Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end,never to cease,everlasting".Then on top of that you must deny the words of the Lord Jesus when He says that those possessing eternal life "shall never perish".You say that they can perish.Then you must deny the words of Jude where he says that those who have a life in the Son are "preserved".You say that they have no eternal security and therefore they are not "preserved".

Jeremy,all you prove is that you are willing to deny the words of the Lord Jesus Himself in order that you can cling to your false beliefs.No matter what the Lord says you will not believe it if it is in conflict with your false ideas.

More later...

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

Earlier I said:

"According to you the Jewish believers would not receive eternal life until after the end of a faithful life.But the Lord Jesus told the Jews that whoever believed Him already had eternal life and were already passed from death unto life..

This statement of mine is supported by the words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

All you can say about the words of the Lord Jersus in this verse is:

Hmmm... Just like those described in Hebrews 10 & 2 Peter 2, right?

You think that your misunderstanding of the verses at Hebrew 10 and 2Peter 2 somehow changes the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus?

That is all you do.You continue to deny what the LOrd Jesus Himself says based on your false views of other verses.

The word "hath" in this verse is in the "present" tense.Here is the meaning of the Greek "present" tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases
this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1077732319-7661.html

So if we will but simply believe the words of the Lord Jesus then we can only conclude that upon belief the Jews possessed (hath) a life that the Lord Jesus describes as "everlasting" ("aionios" = "eternal").

But you attempt to use the following words to prove that they would not be saved until the end of a faithful life:

1 Peter 1:9
9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

If you are correct then Peter would have used a tense that denotes a "receiving" in the "future".But the word "receiving" is in the "present" tense and therefore the "receiving" is not in reference to the "future".

I said,"Jeremy,if you would have investigated the meaning of this verse you would have found out the the word "receiving" here is in the present tense.They have already received the purpose of their faith--the salvation of their souls."

And since you could not refute the fact that the word "receiving" is in the "present" tense you say:

Read what you wrote Jerry... If the tense of komizomenoi is present (which it is), then how can you say they already possess eternal life? Wouldn't that be past tense?

What Peter is saying is that at the time he was writing his words (at that "present" time) that they were the receipents of "the salvation of their souls".

But you would have us believe that even though Peter used the word "receiving" in the "present" tense that the salvation of their souls would not happen until the future.

You have no answer to this so you must say something,no matter how ridiculous.I then said:

At 1Peter 1:9 the word translated "end" can mean "the end to which all things relate,the aim,the purpose"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

So in effect Peter is saying,"receiving the purpose of your faith,even the salvation of your souls"(1Pet.1:9).

But you continue to insist that the "receiving" takes place in the "future".You say:

Jerry, are you serious? Before I pass judgement, I will give you an opportunity to save face.

What a joke!You will give me the opportunity to save face.How you can say this with a straight faith is beyond me.You even admit that the "receiving" is in the "present" tense but then you go on to insist that the "receiving" will not take place until the end of a faithful life.

Feel free to post the entire definition of teloV "end" in 1 Peter 1:9.

If we are to believe that the phrase "the end of your faith" is in reference to receiving salvation at the end of a faithful life then we must believe that they were the receipents of the salvation of their souls at the time Peter wrote those words but at thge same time they would not receive it until later!

Secondly, show me just one translation that says... "Receiving the purpose of your faith..." Good luck...

These verses do not use the word "purpose" but instead uses the word "result" and "outcome":

"obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls."(NASB).

"receiving the result of your faith, the salvation of your souls."(HNV).

The Jewish believers were the receipents ( at the time they heard and believed--"the present tense") of the result of their faith which is the salvation of their souls.

I think that before you give others lectures on the Greek language you should first go back and study the meaning of the tenses in the English language.I do not think that a study of the Greek language will be much use to you until you come to an understanding of the meaning of the "present" tense in English.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

Earlier you said that it is only the "overcomers" who will not lose their salvation.Then I said:

You prove that you do not undersatand that it is by "faith" and "faith" alone whereby one "overcomes":

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith"(1Jn.5:4).

But you say:

This is circular... Their faith was dependent upon keeping God's law. If they did not abide in His law, they were not "overcomers" and their names were blotted out...

You say that their "faith" was dependent on works,or keeping God's law.But Paul says that a man is justified before God by "faith" apart from works:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law....Seeing it is one God, Who shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith"(Ro.3:28,30).

He says:

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith"(Ro.3:27).

These things are so elementary but you prove over and over that you do not even understand the elementary revelations of God.

The Apostles says that "whosoever is born of God overcometh the world".And it was those who believed that the Lord Jesus is the Christ,the Son of the LIving God,who were "born of God":

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even our faith"(1Jn.5:1,4).

It is their "faith" and "faith" alone that overcomes the world.But despite the clear words of John you add to the Scriptures by saying that it was not only their "faith" that was required but also the "law keeping".

"...this is the victory which overcomes the world,even our faith"(1Jn.5:4).

A man's "faith" is "the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

A man's "faith" is not dependent on doing works.Works follows "faith",and that is why "works" are described as the "obedience of faith"[/i].

Those who received the Lord because they believed His words were "born of God"(Jn.1:12,13).And John says that those who are "born of God" are "overcomers".And this is what the Lord Jesus says to those who are "overcomers":

"He that overcometh...I will not blot his name out of the book of life"(Rev.3:5).

But you say that it is possible that the Lord may blot these men out of the book of life despite the fact that they are "born of God" and "overcomers".

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jeremy,

I have started a new thread in reply to your mis-use of John 15.It is on the "General Thelogy" forum and it is titled "Does the Parable of 'The Vine and the Branches' Teach a Loss of Salvation?".

In His grace,--Jerry