A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Jerry,

You said,

You teach that the Jews were required to do "works" in order to be saved,so it is obvious that you are indeed teaching that their physical works were instrumental in their salvation.

No, you are still confused. Again, God asks man to show faith in different ways. Let's look at the Thief on the Cross as an example. I believe that God required water baptism for salvation at that time (more on this later). Now, we know that the Thief on the Cross was not water baptized. We agree that "God looks at the hearts of man..." I believe that God accepted the Thief on the Cross because, had that man not been nailed to a cross, he would have submitted to God's requirements for salvation, and would have been water baptized. Again Jerry, the water is not this "magical" liquid that literally washes away sin, but rather, God required man to show faith by being water baptized. You continue,

It makes no sense whatsoever to say that "works" were necessary for salvation and then to turn around and say that works never saved anyone.

I never said "works" were necessary for salvation, but I did say that works never saved anyone. Since you miss the point again, I'll try again. God has grace. Man must have faith in God. God changes the way He asks man to show faith. In general, God asked the nation of Israel to show their faith in a physical way. The "works" were not active in the salvation process. God saw that they were expressing faith by doing His works, and God saved them. Here's a really simple example Jerry...

Let's say you have a job in a factory. Your boss asks you to make 100 gizmos by the end of the week. If you complete the task, your boss will give you a $1,000 bonus. You work all week, and make all 100 gizmos. You're boss is pleased and hands you 10 brand new $100 bills. Now, your boss is God. Making the 100 gizmos is keeping God's law. The $1,000 bonus is salvation. Because you did what your boss asked you to do, you received the $1,000. The fact that you made the 100 gizmos did not in any way result in the $1,000. In other words, you received the $1,000 because you did what your boss asked, not because you worked hard and made the gizmos. Your boss gave you the bonus because you did what he asked. You weren't making "money," you were making gizmos. The works did not equal the cash. Jewish works did not equal salvation. Your boss asked you to perfom a physical task, and upon completion, you received your bonus. God asked the nation of Israel to keep His law. If they attempted to keep his law by faith, they received their reward, salvation. Today, God asks the body of Christ to believe in the death, burial and resurrection. If we believe, we receive our reward, salvation. Simple, ain't it! You continue,

You seem to confuse "faith" with the "obedience of faith".Both the circumcision and the uncircumcision are justified before God by "faith" and not by the "obedience of faith":

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law"(Ro.3:28).

Again, you quote from a letter written to the body of Christ. Again, this is a truism. Jews were not "justified" by doing the works of the law. They were "justified" by God after they did what God asked them to do by faith.

According to you the Jews were saved by "faith" and by "obedience of faith".And the "obedience of faith" for the Jews was to keep the law.But Paul says that the believer is justified by "faith" apart from the "obedience of faith".

No. you're still confused. The Jews were saved by faith after they did what God asked them to do. We are saved by faith after we do what God asks us to do.

The Lord does not need to see outward demonstrations by man in order to know whether or not he has "faith":

"...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).

No, but the Lord does ask man to do physical things to show faith. How much more physical can you get than circumcision? Why didn't God just look at Abram's heart and say, "Ok good. Abram has faith..." and let it be? Why did God require Abram to cut off the flesh of his foreskin to be saved?

Genesis 17:14 “And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

So the Lord does not need to see any "works" in order to know whether or not a man has faith.The Lord has a reason why he tells men to obey Him and it is not in order to know whether or not one has faith or not.

If this is true, why did God test Abraham? Couldn't God just look at Abraham's heart and see that he had faith?

Genesis 22:1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”

And the "obedience" that is required from man is in regard to our "service" for Him.For instance,Paul tells us,""let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"(2Cor.7:1).

Can a man reject "service" for God and still be saved?

For us this is in regard to the "obedience of faith",but it is not in regard to salvation at all,but instead it is in regard to our "service":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"(Ro.12:1).

Jerry, you are so bizarre. So, believers should be obedient in regard to "service" but not salvation? Secondly, you use more passages to support the most bizarre things... You have no idea what Romans 12:1 is even talking about, do you? So, it's this generic "service" that has nothing to do with salvation? You're very strange... I'll try to help you out a bit...

Why does Paul say, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God?" Because we are saved! Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirt!

1 Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

The word "reasonable" in Romans 12:1 actually means "rational." What is our "rational service" for God? It's rational to present the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God. Paul is referencing a specific "rational" purpose for our physical bodies, not some bizarre, generic "service" you allude to...

And "the law" was in regard to "serving" the Lord also.If the Jews kept the law then they would be a "holy nation" and a "kingdom of priests".The duty of a "priest" was always in regard to "service" for the Lord.

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation"(Ex.19:5,6).

Strange logic Jerry... What about the man in Numbers 15 who went to hell for breaking the law? If the law was not to be kept by faith to receive salvation, then that guy got a raw deal...

The Jews were to obey the law and if they did then they would be serving God by glorfying Him in front of the whole world.This is their destiny:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven"(Mt.5:14-16).

Again, you fail to understand the meaning of the text. These statements come directly after the Sermon on the Mount. You attempt to use this passage to prove that Jews were keeping the law for service... The point of this passage is salt and light. They are "salt" because they keep the law by faith. They are special, and cause others to "thirst" for what they have. They are "light" because they keep the law by faith. They are like beacons in the night and point others to God. These men are not glorified by men for the service they do, but rather, their being "salt and light" drive people to God.

The "obedience of faith" of the Jews was in regard to "service" and not "salvation",just as it is for us.The Jews were to keep the law so that the whole world would see their "good works" and so that "all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else"(1Ki.8:60).

More ripping out of context Jerry? I'll help you with 1 Kings 8 as well. Back up to at least verse 56... God had given rest (peace)to His people and had kept all the good promises He Had given through Moses. Solomon reminded the people of this. Then he expressed his desire for three things: That the Lord would be with Solomon’s generation as He had been with his forefathers, that God would give His people the will to walk in all His ways, and that the requests Solomon had made in his prayer would remain close to the heart of God day by day. Solomon ultimately desired that all the peoples of the earth (v. 43) might know that God is the only true God. In order for all this to take place Solomon reminded the people that they must be fully committed to the Lord and obedient to His Word. What's interesting is, Solomon himself eventually failed to do this. Do a little research next time Jerry...

So the Lord has a reason why he tells man to "obey" Him,and that reason has nothing to do with "salvation" or demonstrating "faith".

So, we don't need to "obey" God for salvation? Do I need to obey Him and "believe in my Heart and confess that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead..." or not?

Yes,but submitting to the rite of water baptism was not in regard to "salvation" but in regard to "service".I will start a thread on the "General Theology" forum which demonstrates this truth.

I can't wait for this one... :doh: I guess "for the remission of sins," and "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," don't really mean what they say, huh Jerry?

I have addressed this question as to whether or not the Twelve were in the Body of Christ on a thread I started on the "Dispensational" forum.Please read my initial post on that thread and then you are free to make any comments which you have which you think demonstrates that what I say is in error.

What's the thread called? Next, I asked,

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Can a person have "faith" in God, but reject the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and still be saved?

You replied,

If a person has true "faith" in God then he will believe the truth concerning the death,burial and resurrection of of Jesus Christ.He will also believe the truth concerning the purpose of His death--"when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son"(Ro.5:10).

Did Peter have true faith Jerry?

Matthew 16
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me...

Wow, by Jerry's logic, Peter was not saved... :kookoo:

But if he refuses to believe this message which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit then it is evident that he never really had true faith to begin with.He was never saved and by resisting the Holy Spirit he remains unsaved.

Jerry, what about the OT Saints who did not have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit or the death, burial and resurrection? What did they have to do to be saved? If you say, "faith alone," then you must agree that NT believers needed to "have faith in" something different that OT Saints did, right? If this is true, then you must agree that God asks man to show faith in different ways...

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by 1Way

Here’s some biblical food for thought. Jesus did NOT teach the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ prior to His resurection, He taught the message of the kingdom promised, offered, and rejected. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, faith in the resurrection of Christ was a forbidden message.

I find it fascinating that you believe that the alleged founder of Christianity did not teach the pivotal doctrine of that faith during his public ministry. :think:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

1Way,

Yes, that's excatly where I was going. I'm trying to show Jerry that "salvation" is not something simplistic like, "Faith alone..." It seems that Jerry will have to concede that God has indeed changed the way He deals with man.
--Jeremy

You're not very smart, when it comes to understanding basic biblical doctrine, are you?

Moses wrote:

Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars-if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness.

The prophet of Old Habakkuk tells us:

For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come and will not delay.

"See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright-
but the righteous will live by his faith."

Then the great apostle Paul of the New Covenant said:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
No, you are still confused.

Jeremy,

It is you who remains confused and not me.According to you the Jewish believers would not receive eternal life until after the end of a faithful life.But the Lord Jesus old the Jews that whoever believed Him already had eternal life and were already passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

That is so simple to understand but you cling to your bizarre beliefs that they could not possibly have eternal life until after a life of doing works.The Lord's words could not be more plain.Those who believed in their heart what the Lord said already possessed a life that the Lord describes as "everlasting"!

Again, God asks man to show faith in different ways.

Yes,but this "obedience of faith" comes after "faith".And according to the words of the Lord Jesus those with "faith" already possess everlasting life.You ignore what the Lord Jesus so plainly says.

Let's look at the Thief on the Cross as an example. I believe that God required water baptism for salvation at that time (more on this later). Now, we know that the Thief on the Cross was not water baptized. We agree that "God looks at the hearts of man..." I believe that God accepted the Thief on the Cross because, had that man not been nailed to a cross, he would have submitted to God's requirements for salvation, and would have been water baptized.

Your point about the thief on the cross proves absolutely nothing in regard to whether or not works are required for salvation.

I never said "works" were necessary for salvation, but I did say that works never saved anyone.

Jeremy,we must throw our reason to the wind in order to believe what you say.According to you the Jew could not be saved without "works" but then you turn around and say that "works never saved anyone"!

Since you miss the point again, I'll try again. God has grace. Man must have faith in God.

Yes,the sinner is saved by "faith" apart from the "obedience of faith".

God changes the way He asks man to show faith.

Since the Lord God knows who has faith or not because He knows the heart of man He is not asking man to show Him that He has faith.

In general, God asked the nation of Israel to show their faith in a physical way.

Again,He knows what is in the heart of man so anything that He tells believers to do is not so that they can "show their faith in a physical way".

The "works" were not active in the salvation process.

Finally you say something that makes sense.The "works" were not active in the salvation process!

But earlier you said that the Jewish believers could not be saved until they did works.But now you say that these "works" were not active in the salvation process.

Here's a really simple example Jerry...

Let's say you have a job in a factory. Your boss asks you to make 100 gizmos by the end of the week. If you complete the task, your boss will give you a $1,000 bonus. You work all week, and make all 100 gizmos. You're boss is pleased and hands you 10 brand new $100 bills. Now, your boss is God. Making the 100 gizmos is keeping God's law. The $1,000 bonus is salvation. Because you did what your boss asked you to do, you received the $1,000. The fact that you made the 100 gizmos did not in any way result in the $1,000.

Jeremy,if I did not make the 100 gizmos then it is obvious that I would not have received the $1,000.So it is obvious to anyone who will use their brain that my making the 100 gizmos was instrumental in receiving the $1000.

But you say:

The fact that you made the 100 gizmos did not in any way result in the $1,000.

Come on,Jeremy,try using your brain for a change.If I did not make the 100 gizmos then I would not have received the $1000.So the fact that I did make them is the only reason that I received the $1000.

The Jews were saved by faith after they did what God asked them to do. We are saved by faith after we do what God asks us to do.

No,the Jews were saved by "faith" before they did any works.

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).

No, but the Lord does ask man to do physical things to show faith. How much more physical can you get than circumcision? Why didn't God just look at Abram's heart and say, "Ok good. Abram has faith..." and let it be? Why did God require Abram to cut off the flesh of his foreskin to be saved?

The Lord used OT saints to teach us that "obedience" follow faith.This circumcision was a "sign" of the covenant which the Lord made with Abraham (Gen.17:13).

Genesis 17:14 “And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

Those who were not circumcised had "faith".Those who refused to be circumcised had no faith in the first place.

Genesis 22:1 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”

Abraham had already been declared righteous in the sight of God before these words were even spoken:

"And he believed the Lord,and it was counted to him for righteousness"(Gen.15:6).

Can a man reject "service" for God and still be saved?

Jeremy,are you not aware that after a siinner believes then at that time he is sealed by the Holy Spirit?Service comes after that "sealing" by the Holy Spirit.

Jerry, you are so bizarre. So, believers should be obedient in regard to "service" but not salvation?

No,Jeremy,what is bizarre is the fact that you just cannot believe that once the sinner believes then at that time he has eternal life and will not come into condemnation.All believers should be obedient in regard to "service" but that does not change the fact that he already possesses a life in Christ Jesus that will never end before he does any service at all.

Secondly, you use more passages to support the most bizarre things... You have no idea what Romans 12:1 is even talking about, do you? So, it's this generic "service" that has nothing to do with salvation?

No,it has nothing to do with salvation.After the sinner believes then at that time he is sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption--the redemption of our new,glorious immortal bodies.

You're very strange... I'll try to help you out a bit...

Perhaps you can teach me how to ignore the words of the Lord Jesus where He says that those who "believe" already possess a life that will never end and will not come into condemnation.

Strange logic Jerry... What about the man in Numbers 15 who went to hell for breaking the law?

There is no evidence that anyone at Numbers 15 went to hell for breaking the law.Your points are so waek that you are forced to take liberty with the Scriptures.

If the law was not to be kept by faith to receive salvation, then that guy got a raw deal..

According to your reasoning the Jews who received John's first epistle could not even receive salvation until after a life of "works".But John tells them that they already possess a life in Jesus Christ that will never end.

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

John tells these Jewish believers that they already possess a life in Christ Jesus that is eternal.The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word "aionios" which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

So John is telling these Jewish believers that they already possess a life in Christ Jesus that will never end.If it could end then that would mean that it was never "eternal" to begin with.

And this is what the Lord Jesus Himself says about those who have been given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, Who gave them me..."(Jn.10:28,29).

We can see that the Lord Jesus says that those who have been given eternal life shall never perish.And those who have been given eternal life are given to the Son by the Father,as verse 29 says.This is what the Lord Jesus says about those who were given to Him by the Father:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day"(Jn.6:39).

How much clearer could it be before you will believe,Jeremy?Your whole theology in regard to the Jewish believers is based on a denial that "faith" only was not enough for their salvation.But the Lord Jesus Himself told the Jews that those who believe already have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.

And according to your theology the Jews would not receive eternal life until after a life of faithful service.But John tells the Jewish believers that they already possess a life in Christ Jesus that will never end.

Everyone of your arguments are a denial of the very words of the Lord Jesus Himself!

More later...

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

Zakath – I find it fascinating that you believe that the God of Christianity taught the pivotal doctrine of faith (the death burial and resurrection) during his public ministry.

I did not create this idea, I copied and pasted it from God’s word, Jesus flat out and particularly forbad teaching that He was to be killed and be raised the third day. Also, prior to the resurrection, although there may be some indirect hints about resurrection somehow being a part of the faith, it was not taught that the Messiah had to die, be buried and resurrect three days later. Here was my argument which was well presented by God. If you don’t agree with Him, then you have fingers and a keyboard and a somewhat intelligent mind, say why you don’t agree, don’t wonder about “me” since I am simply trusting in His message.

Mt 16:20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

Mr 8:29 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ." 30 Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him. 31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Lu 9:18 And it happened, as He was alone praying, [that] His disciples joined Him, and He asked them, saying, "Who do the crowds say that I am?" 19 So they answered and said, "John the Baptist, but some say Elijah; and others say that one of the old prophets has risen again." 20 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, "The Christ of God." 21 And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

I think Jeremy did not exactly mean to suggest that they rejected the death burial and resurrection, as much as the complete lack of faith in it because it was not previously taught for salvation, or as you said as being “the pivotal doctrine of faith during His earthly ministry” sans a few slight changes.

Jeremy and I do not simply teach Christianity from a traditional standpoint, we teach and believe Christianity from a biblical standpoint, there’s the difference. If you think that Jesus was not meaning what He said in the above quotation, then please, by all means, and even though you are a self proclaimed unbeliever in this faith, explain yourself.

 

[1Way]

Freak – So you are agreeing with Jeremy? All your verses present no problems with what Jeremy is saying.

1) Abraham is the father of two groups, both the circumcision and the uncircumcision.

2) Faith is always necessary for a righteous relationship or salvation with God.

3) You said

Then the great apostle Paul of the New Covenant said:

(1) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (2) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

God through Paul says that “the righteous” or “the just” shall live by faith several times, that much is true.

(1) The curse only operates against those who were 1) under the law, and 2) did not keep the law, thus you are not cursed if you are under the law and keep the law, and God commanded men and women for thousands of years to keep the law to “live” by His commandments.

(2) You contradict what you quote, God says that "The man who does these things will live by them." Such terminology, so that you will live ... otherwise you will be cut off, are the general OT equivalents of the NT terms for “salvation” and “damnation”, “eternal life” and “spiritual death”.

Paul is affirming that salvation was by keeping the law, but that you were cursed if you were under the law but did not keep it. Also, keeping the law (without faith) was not justifying before God. Here is your passage, only this time I provide references so that others can more easily search these things out as well.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

God through Paul backs up these teachings constantly.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Simply doing the deeds (outward obedience) was NEVER justifying, even the law of God requires faith and love in God and in Him only. See the 10 commandments for more.

But NOW righteousness apart from the law is revealed!!! That necessarily means that prior to this “but now” revelation, it used to be righteousness from the law.

Unfortunately, I’m speaking to “freak”, so anything I offer by way of a godly advice or biblical correction will be automatically rejected or ignored or contextually ripped. So I offer this more so in hopes of the benefit of everyone who would respond in a reasonable fashion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
I can't wait for this one...

Jeremy,

If you cannot wait why have you not responded?The thread is on the "General Theology" forum.

I guess "for the remission of sins," and "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," don't really mean what they say, huh Jerry?

The Lord is merely describing those who are saved:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"(Mk.16:16).

The Lord knows that those with true faith will submit to the rite of water baptism.The Lord used words similiar to this at another place:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life"(Mt.19:29).

Here the Lord is not saying that a "requirement" for receiving everlasting life is that they must forsake their family members,but instead He is "describing" those who will inherit eternal life.

What's the thread called?

The name of the thread in regard to whether or not the Twelve are in the "Body of Christ" is on the "Dispensational" forum and it is called "The meaning of the phrase 'In Christ' ".

Did Peter have true faith Jerry?

Matthew 16
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me...

Wow, by Jerry's logic, Peter was not saved...

The question you previously asked was in reference to a death and resurrection that was already accomplished.Now you attemnpt to turn the tables by using a death and resurrection that still remained in the future.

Jerry, what about the OT Saints who did not have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit or the death, burial and resurrection?

I will give you the Scripture that is in regard to the OT saints,but I am sure that you will not believe what it says:

"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off"(Ps.37:28).

What did they have to do to be saved? If you say, "faith alone," then you must agree that NT believers needed to "have faith in" something different that OT Saints did, right?

THe Jewish believers were "born of God" when they believed in their heart that Jesus is the promised Messiah:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.... For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith"(1Jn.5:1,4).

If this is true, then you must agree that God asks man to show faith in different ways...

You confuse the "obedience of faith" with the "object of faith".The object of faith has changed throughout time.The object of Abraham's faith was not the death and resurrection of Christ,but at the same time his "faith" was counted to him for righteousness.

And yes,throughout the ages the Lord has given different commandments which believers are to follow.

Jeremy,you will never come to the knowkledge of the truth in regard to how the Jewish believers were saved until you actually believe what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews.

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

Jeremy – Just so you know how far Jerry will go in disrespectful misleading argumentation, I present to you his post dated Jan 16 2004 post 91 of 134

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=438286#post438286

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Originally posted by 1Way
The evidence against the closed view just keeps stacking up while the open view stands on God's word, and people like Jerry now admit that he has not even tried to rebut our arguments, he just claims that he is right and we are wrong, wow, some iron clad argumentation/apologetis there.

The reason that I have not even attempted to rebut your arguments is because before you make your argument you "edit" what the Scriptures say.And then you base your argument on your new,revised and edited version of what the Scriptures actually say.

That is why it is a waste of time to argue these matters with you.You cannot deal with the Scriptures as they are written.

In His grace,--Jerry

So, if you think that Jerry is not even trying to understand your view, even though he keeps up the false pretence engaging you as though understands your view, he habitually only does that simply to argue against you, he need not try to understand nor refute anything you say, he (constantly) only wants to argue against you. Thus he is not honestly part of a mutual discussion or point counter-point debate, he is mostly just using you as a decoy so that he can monologue. He’s very selfish and dishonest in this regard, excepting that after many weeks and ever months altogether, he finally actually admitted what you see above!

Not to dissuade you from your efforts, just to help clarify the sort of person you are dealing with. Like freak and many others, they readily confuse

• a disagreement with
  a refutation,
  
  a truth claim with
  an apologetically exposed support line of reasoning,
  
  a point of view with
  a point counter-point response.
  
  quoting a scripture teaching, (their meaning, not otherwise)
  with establishing the righteous truth of the matter

Just thought you might like to know.

 

[1Way]

Jerry – You ALREADY gave the forum title in the first place! He asked

What's the thread called? Next, I asked,

and so you reply with

Jeremy,

If you cannot wait why have you not responded?The thread is on the "General Theology" forum.

For Jeremy’s sake, no, for goodness sake Jerry, he is asking for which thread amongst the hundreds are you referring to. :think:

Also, if the thread is very long, you might be so kind as to point out what post numbers or pages he should concentrate on. Or do you expect him to wade through 50 or 100 posts just because you won’t take the time to give a more pointed reference.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

2) Faith is always necessary for a righteous relationship or salvation with God.

This we already know. For the Scriptures are consistent with that message...

Moses wrote:

Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars-if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness.

The prophet of Old Habakkuk tells us:

For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come and will not delay.

"See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright-
but the righteous will live by his faith."

Then the great apostle Paul of the New Covenant said:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

Paul is affirming that salvation was by keeping the law,

1Way, your theology needs some fine tuning....

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

That necessarily means that prior to this “but now” revelation, it used to be righteousness from the law.

Righteousness comes only through God not through anything. For only God is righteous and only He can bestow it upon humanity.

...so anything I offer by way of a godly advice or biblical correction will be automatically rejected or ignored or contextually ripped.

You remind me much of the those who are in cults. You are convinced in your darknened mind that you are correct, when in reality you have been deceived by your faulty understanding of God's revealed message found in Scripture. There is hope for you, however, if you repent and place your faith in Christ who is God.

 

[1Way]

Freak – This time you only partly ripped what I said, but still the violence is severe, so my repeat post will serve to remind everyone what I actually said and how you did not address my points with their contextual development, nor significant biblical demonstrations of my view. Enjoy!

Freak – So you are agreeing with Jeremy? All your verses present no problems with what Jeremy is saying.

1) Abraham is the father of two groups, both the circumcision and the uncircumcision.

2) Faith is always necessary for a righteous relationship or salvation with God.

3) You said

Then the great apostle Paul of the New Covenant said:

(1) All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (2) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

God through Paul says that “the righteous” or “the just” shall live by faith several times, that much is true.

(1) The curse only operates against those who were 1) under the law, and 2) did not keep the law, thus you are not cursed if you are under the law and keep the law, and God commanded men and women for thousands of years to keep the law to “live” by His commandments.

(2) You contradict what you quote, God says that "The man who does these things will live by them." Such terminology, so that you will live ... otherwise you will be cut off, are the general OT equivalents of the NT terms for “salvation” and “damnation”, “eternal life” and “spiritual death”.

Paul is affirming that salvation was by keeping the law, but that you were cursed if you were under the law but did not keep it. Also, keeping the law (without faith) was not justifying before God. Here is your passage, only this time I provide references so that others can more easily search these things out as well.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

God through Paul backs up these teachings constantly.

Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Simply doing the deeds (outward obedience) was NEVER justifying, even the law of God requires faith and love in God and in Him only. See the 10 commandments for more.

But NOW righteousness apart from the law is revealed!!! That necessarily means that prior to this “but now” revelation, it used to be righteousness from the law.

Unfortunately, I’m speaking to “freak”, so anything I offer by way of a godly advice or biblical correction will be automatically rejected or ignored or contextually ripped. So I offer this more so in hopes of the benefit of everyone who would respond in a reasonable fashion.

There, now if someone wanted to know what I actually said and meant after reading your violent post, they have my original post right here for anyone to see for themselves.

The devil is much like you freak, taking only parts and bits of the truth, or if he takes the whole truth, then he just twists it until it suites his fancy, or ignores whatever is convenient for him, just like you do!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
Thus he (JerrY) is not honestly part of a mutual discussion or point counter-point debate, he is mostly just using you as a decoy so that he can monologue.

When 1Way cannot answer the verses that prove his views are in error he reverts to character assassination.

He’s very selfish and dishonest in this regard, excepting that after many weeks and ever months altogether, he finally actually admitted what you see above!

I guess that he hopes that his smear campaign will cause me to leave so that he will not have to look at the verses which he cannot answer.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
Jerry – You ALREADY gave the forum title in the first place! He asked and so you reply with For Jeremy’s sake, no, for goodness sake Jerry, he is asking for which thread amongst the hundreds are you referring to.

It is you who needs to "think" for a change,1Way.The subject of the particular discussion in this instance is in regard to "water baptism".If he will go to the "General Theology" forum it is not difficult (for anyone but you) to find a thread I started on "water baptism".Try it and you might surprise yourself and you might actually find it.

Also, if the thread is very long, you might be so kind as to point out what post numbers or pages he should concentrate on.

It is the initial post on the thread.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
But NOW righteousness apart from the law is revealed!!! That necessarily means that prior to this “but now” revelation, it used to be righteousness from the law.

1Way,

Yes,prior to this revelation it was revealed that the Jew could be justified by keeping the law,but in order to be justified in this way one must keep all the law without fail.And since all the Jews failed to keep all the law,they were guilty of breaking the law:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

As Paul says,it is evident that no one is justified by law keeping.Seems that it is evident to almost everyone but you.

You say that in the past that "it used to be righteousness from the law",but Paul says that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God".

Unfortunately, I’m speaking to “freak”, so anything I offer by way of a godly advice or biblical correction will be automatically rejected or ignored or contextually ripped.

Unfortunately I am speaking to "1Way" so anything I offer by the way of godly advice or bibical correction will be automatically rejected or ignored or contextually ripped.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

God commands and expects only reasonable things from man

God commands and expects only reasonable things from man

Jerry – The law requires, it does not ask for obedience. God never had to say, you have to keep the whole law or be in trouble, because every single command, is a “command”, it was not optional, it was mandatory, obedience to God and His commands is always required for being accepted by God and for eternal life. Fortunately today God removed the law as the way of demonstrating our faith for us in this dispensation.

Your right in that righteousness used to be from keeping the law. But then you say that no one kept the law. You have some real problems supporting that from scripture, especially without contradicting other passages, consider.

De 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you .

See, God commands not to alter His commands so that they MAY be kept. It is pure nonsense for a wise and just God to command anyone to do anything that they simply can not do. God did not say, Jerry, go jump over the Rocky mountains, from one side to the other, and if you keep this commandment, then you shall live and be a part of my people. That is much like you are trying to say God actually did do. He knew that the people could NOT keep the entire law of God, so He commanded them to do it anyway. That violates in so many ways. Here’s more scripture to conform your faith to, not to contradict your faith to.

Consider the Pslamist teaching that man can and should keep God’s law.

Ps 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

The Pslamist continues by purely contradicting your error by saying that he keep God’s law.

Ps 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually , Forever and ever.

and again

Ps 119:55 I remember Your name in the night, O LORD, And I keep Your law.

and again

Ps 119:115 Depart from me, you evildoers, For I will keep the commandments of my God!

And same in the Proverbs

Pr 28:4 Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, But such as keep the law contend with them .

Same with Jesus

Mt 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments ."

Same with James just before the Jerusalem council.

Ac 21:24 "Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave [their] heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but [that] you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law .

And here Jesus describes people who kept the law.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

and again here

Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here [are] those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

As to God’s development of what He meant when Paul said that “a man shall live by (keeping the law)” consider the follow

Le 18:5 ‘You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I [am] the LORD.

and again

Eze 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, ‘which, [if] a man does, he shall live by them.’

and again

Ro 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."

and again

Ga 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them ."

Even a Satanist could obey a law of God, like not working on the Sabbath and have no godly faith in God. Outward obedience to a command is thus easily understand as not being “of faith”, keeping the law has it’s being “of works” of obedience. But God gave His laws expecting them to believe as well, and not just do the works without faith in God. I know you do not disagree with faith being required by God, so that much is granted.

So, please consider this wider contextual development of how God taught about keeping the law, and that man did indeed keep it.

Also, remember, this is not to say that no one broke the law, keeping the law means continuing/purposing to keep God’s law, and within God’s law, was an entire system of coverings for sins, the sacrificial system which supported God’s priesthood and even a yearly sacrifice which pointed to the spiritual reality that God ultimately uses grace as the means for salvation even in the dispensation of law! The priest gave a special “automatic” sacrifice for all sins done without even knowing about it! Isn’t that something. God provided a complete catch all system so that man did NOT have to perfectly keep every single law or else go directly to hell, there was forgiveness of sins constantly being executed upon repentance and sacrifices made and personal perseverance to continue keeping the law.

Thus, when you include God’s system of grace and forgiveness through the sacrificial system, we know that “keeping His law” was not a humanly impossible task, and God was more than reasonable in commanding His people to live by keeping them. At the same time, no one kept the law “perfectly” without ever breaking any of them, but keeping the law allowed for forgiveness of sin, a rich supply of grace and mercy. Also, I think Christ broke the law, technically speaking, but was not guilty because He obeyed overriding godly commands, some laws naturally conflicted with each other, like don’t work on the Sabboth, yet circumcise on the eighth day, who could control when your baby would be born? So sometimes people were forced to make godly concessions to keep some commands by braking another less moral or weighty command, which of course God allowed since His own law created the need.

Also, God rounded this gospel requirement for keeping the law for life, that a man of God could NOT have just faith alone and remain saved.

Heb 9:7 But into the second part the high priest [went] alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and [for] the people’s sins [committed] in ignorance;

Nu 15:27 ‘And if a person sins unintentionally , then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering. 28 ‘So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 ‘You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them. 30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt [shall be] upon him.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Note also, that if a person had unresolved sin and then died prior to the upcoming yearly catch all sins sacrifice, it does not remotely seem plausible that God would send them to hell because the sacrifice was not made prior to them dying. God used grace to make the whole thing work, just like the conflicting laws bit, and similarly God also demonstrated His grace and mercy by forgiving such people as David, a murderer and adulterous. So keeping the law was a very humanly doable situation it had a significant element of grace supporting the entire thing. Same with the criminal on the cross, he was surely not in good standing with God’s law, and yet he was saved, God’s grace and mercy backed the entire program, but you could not reject God’s commands, they were a requirement for life, not an option.

(Jerry, please don’t become like freak, I was just demonstrating the circular self refuting nature of his remark.)

In God's grace, and by His word,
:1Way:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
Your right in that righteousness used to be from keeping the law.

I said that if a man kept the law perfectly then he could earn eternal life.But if he broke even one commandment he was guilty of all:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all"(Jms.2:10).

How is being guilty of all going to save anyone?

But then you say that no one kept the law. You have some real problems supporting that from scripture, especially without contradicting other passages, consider.

There is no difficulty in proving this.The Lord Jesus Himself told the Jews that none of them kept the law (Jn.7:19).Also,Paul says that those who keep the law earn eternal life (Ro.2:6,7,12) but at the same time he says that he has proved that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin,"There is none righteous,no,not one"(Ro.3:9,10).

Here is what the law says to them who are under the law:

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"(Ro.3:19).

All those who were under the law were guilty because none of them could keep the law.Therefore,Paul says,"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

See, God commands not that alter His commands so that you MAY keep them, and note, He emphasizes that He commands them to keep them. It is pure nonsense for a wise and just God to command anyone to do anything that they simply can not do.

When man sins he sins with his eyes open.There is nothing that compels him to do something which he knows is wrong.So it is entirely possible for him to live a life without sin.But despite this all men choose to go their own way at times.If man could not resist the urge to sin then he would not be considered to be guilty when he does sin.But the Scriptures make it plain that he is guilty of his sins.

He knew that the people could NOT keep the entire law of God, so He commanded them to do it anyway. That violates in so many ways. Here’s more scripture to conform your faith to, not to contradict your faith to.

The Lord knows that there is no reasonable excuse for sinning.He gave the law so that the people would know that they do in fact sin and therefore in need of One who can deliver them from the guilt and defilement of sin.And that is exacctly what Paul says:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

Ps 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

The Jew wanted to keep the law,but despite this they all sinned.And all of the verses in Psalms that you mention are to be understood in this way.

Same with Jesus...

Yes,the Lord Jesus told the rich man that if he wanted to inherit eternal life by his "works" then he can if he keeps all the commandments.But since he knew that he could not he left.So the Lord Jesus was using the commandments to give the rich man the knowledge of his sinfulness--by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Same with James just before the Jerusalem council.

James meant that Paul was to demonstrate that he still followed the law,not that he kept it perfectly.And it is interesting that Paul says that at the time he was "persecuting the church" that he was "blameless" in regard to the law (Phil.3:6).But he was not even saved at the time he was persecuting the church.

And here Jesus describes people who kept the law.

These verses are in reference to the future when the Lord will put His Spirit in the Jews who believe and He will "cause" them to walk in His statutes (Ez.36:27).

As to God’s development of what He meant when Paul said that “a man shall live by (keeping the law)” consider the follow

Yes,this is in regard to temporal living,as the following verse demonstrates:

"This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success"(Josh.1:8).

Why cannot you believe the words of Paul when he says that "by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight"(Ro.3:20).

You go about attempting to prove that Paul is in error!He says that no flesh is justified by the deeds of the law but you are attempting to prove that Paul is in error.

But God gave His laws expecting them to believe as well, and not just do the works without faith in God. I know you do not disagree with faith being required by God, so that much is granted.

The law was given so that even the faithful should attempt to keep it.But it was never given so that anyone could make themselves righteous before God.

Instead it was given so that the Jews would have the "knowledge" of sin.

So, please consider this wider contextual development of how God taught about keeping the law, and that man did indeed keep it.

None of them kept it perfectly and that it what it took in order to be considered righteous before the Lord God.

Also, remember, this is not to say that no one broke the law, keeping the law means continuing/purposing to keep God’s law, and within God’s law, was an entire system of coverings for sins, the sacrificial system which supported God’s priesthood and even a yearly sacrifice which pointed to the spiritual reality that God ultimately uses grace as the means for salvation even in the dispensation of law!

You are right that the Lord made provisions for those who broke the law,but all this was entirely by "grace" and nothing else.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[1Way]

Jerry – You self contradict, you were pretty much consistent until your last concept where you said

You are right that the Lord made provisions for those who broke the law,but all this was entirely by "grace" and nothing else.

Right, God forgave men when they broke His commandments, and then they continued “keeping the law”, if they latter broke it again, then by God’s gracious provision for forgivness of sins, they were forgiven, that is all part of what it means to keep the law, the sacrificial system is part of the law.

So your last point totally validated my entire post that it was possible to “keep the law”, that was the way for salvation. Just as the picking up the sticks illustration showed, if you did not obey God’s Sabboth (a capitol offense), God required your life with your sin guilt upon you, God totally cut him off completely because he sinned presumptuously, intentionally, denying that he need obey God’s commandments, he became a law breaker, not a law keeper. God required keeping the law for righteousness, for life eternal, you could not have faith only, you had to do the works too, it was faith plus works.

You agree with my understanding of God’s grace in it’s relationship with the people who were under God’s law, and then you turn around and say that they could not keep His law. You are being inconsistent, we have no idea which you mean to be true, since you affirm them both.

Resting in Him, by His word, without dissimilation,
:1Way:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

Freak –
The devil is much like you freak, taking only parts and bits of the truth, or if he takes the whole truth, then he just twists it until it suites his fancy, or ignores whatever is convenient for him, just like you do!

They accused Jesus of working in the power of Satan too. Nothing has changed as the unGodly continue to accuse the geuine believers with being in the league with the enemy. You're sort of like the hell-bound homosexuals who have turned the truth into a lie. Stop communing with the wicked and come out of their wickedness, 1Way. Being Nicer then God isn't the 1Way, it's the wrong way.

Scripture states clearly:

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Get off the plot materials and get into God's Word.

 

[1Way]

God does not command the impossible, God is reasonable and wise

God does not command the impossible, God is reasonable and wise

It may seem like an impossible task, but we can love God with all our heart and soul and mind, that was the overriding theme of the Law of God. Keeping God’s law was required, it was not optional.

“1 "Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess, 2 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you—‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’”

“4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” (De 6:1-5 NKJV)

“35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 Jesus said to him," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."” (Mt 22:35-40 NKJV)

“25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?" 27 So he answered and said," ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’" 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."” (Lu 10:25-28 NKJV)

Ne 1:5 And I said: "I pray, LORD God of heaven, O great and awesome God, [You] who keep [Your] covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments,

The nature of the law was in love for God, those who love and observe His commandments received God’s mercy.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
It may seem like an impossible task, but we can love God with all our heart and soul and mind, that was the overriding theme of the Law of God. Keeping God’s law was required, it was not optional.

1Way,

You left out one part of the overriding theme of the Law of God:

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these"(Mk.12:30,31).

That is "the Law" summed up by the Lord Jesus Himself.Are you able to give me an example of any man who has ever kept this commandment perfectly?

The nature of the law was in love for God, those who love and observe His commandments received God’s mercy.

Then according to your logic then only those who perfectly love their neighbors as themselves can receive God's mercy.

And besides according to your argument no one would receive eternal life until after a life of faithfully observing His commandments.But the Apostle John tells the Christian that we already have a life in Christ Jesus,and he describes that life as "eternal":

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son"(1Jn.5:11).

The word "eternal" is translated from the Greek word "aionios",which means "without end,never to cease,everlasting"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

If those who already possess eternal life could somehow lose it then that would mean that that life was never "eternal" to begin with.But John says that we do in fact possess a life in Christ Jesus that is "eternal".And this is what the Lord Jesus said about those who have been given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"(Jn.10:28).

The Lord Jesus Himself proves that your ideas are in error.Those who "believe" already possess eternal life,so the reward of eternal life is not reckoned of "works" but instead according to "faith":

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law"(Ro.3:28).

In His grace,--Jerry