Your opinion on God’s Law.

[Derf]

God's word has that God said vengeance is mine I will repay. This is God speaking. It is not for you or I. If you think it is for you, you may need to report the crime and trust the outcome to the courts.

I don't disagree with you--there's a jurisdictional issue on most laws. But it doesn't take away from the law itself, or the principle involved. If God says "Vengeance is mine", does that mean there is no penalty for murder except that God does it? Or does it mean that that particular portion of the law is to be executed by the local authorities, which God has installed?

And how do we treat that law if we are one of the local authorities? Do we sit back on our hands and say, "Sorry, that's God's job to avenge murder."?

And one other question--did God change His position on murder if to Noah He said "avenge murder" and to us He says "don't avenge murder"? Even worse, did God change his mind even in Moses time, allowing for the avenger of blood in Numbers 35:19 and claiming all vengeance action in Deut 32:35?

Rather, as I think you've pointed out, the personal vengeance is denied to the Christian by Paul's citation of Deut 32:35, but the state is still responsible to carry out the sentence--just as God's vengeance is seldom wreaked without the hand of man involved somewhere.

So sometimes the law is corporate and sometimes it is individual. And the state still has a job to do upholding God's law. And we, in our democratic society, still have a job to do to elect people that are willing and able to seek out God's law and enact in our own statutes.

 

[IMJerusha]

There is a big difference in Torah and Jesus' law.

Jesus' law is explained in the New Testament. Jesus law is His teachings and commands.

Torah contains tons of laws and very complicated. Jesus' teachings are not complicated, it is just hard to follow because we have to abandon our worldly way of living and mentality and change to Jesus' ways.

Are you saying we should observe most of the laws of Leviticus? do you observe most of them?

thank you for spelling.

No, Meshak, I am not saying we should observe most of the laws of Leviticus. I've already stated that Yeshua has fulfilled much of the Law and that much of it also is impossible to observe as the Temple and Levitical priesthood is no more. Then, on top of that, some of the Law only applies to some people. There's nothing wrong with observing the Feasts nor is there anything wrong with observing the dietary laws if it is in your heart to do so. Torah isn't different than Yeshua's Law. Consider His teaching as found in Matthew 5, 6 and 7. It's all about the Law. Torah is God's Law of Love and it shouldn't be hard to understand this and to see that God's Law exists from Genesis through Revelation. It's eternal and we can not dismiss it. If we are following Yeshua then we are following God's Law because Yeshua follows God's Law.

 

[IMJerusha]

There is absolutely no point to the law for the believer. The law is only for the non-believer to point him to his need for Christ.


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That's like saying there is no point to God for the believer and sadly, New Testament churches are leading people to this. There is no Christ/Messiah without the Law. Exactly what do you think Yeshua is doing right now? He's pleasing the Father through eternal obedience. If He were to ever stop, we would have a problem.

 

[jzeidler]

That's like saying there is no point to God for the believer and sadly, New Testament churches are leading people to this. There is no Christ/Messiah without the Law. Exactly what do you think Yeshua is doing right now? He's pleasing the Father through eternal obedience. If He were to ever stop, we would have a problem.

Paul disagrees.

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

 

[Jacob]

Here's why: "Speak to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.'" (Leviticus 23:2)

In this case the "children of Israel" is a reference to Jacob.

No, Jacob's name was changed to Israel and children of Israel refers to his descendants, the people or nation of Israel.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, there is no example in the NT of anyone observing the feasts of YHVH other than the natives. You are transgressing God's law.

jamie, you are not being clear in what you are saying. In Acts there was observation of the feasts. Observing God's law is not the same as transgressing God's law, sorry.

 

[Jacob]

I don't disagree with you--there's a jurisdictional issue on most laws. But it doesn't take away from the law itself, or the principle involved. If God says "Vengeance is mine", does that mean there is no penalty for murder except that God does it? Or does it mean that that particular portion of the law is to be executed by the local authorities, which God has installed?

And how do we treat that law if we are one of the local authorities? Do we sit back on our hands and say, "Sorry, that's God's job to avenge murder."?

And one other question--did God change His position on murder if to Noah He said "avenge murder" and to us He says "don't avenge murder"? Even worse, did God change his mind even in Moses time, allowing for the avenger of blood in Numbers 35:19 and claiming all vengeance action in Deut 32:35?

Rather, as I think you've pointed out, the personal vengeance is denied to the Christian by Paul's citation of Deut 32:35, but the state is still responsible to carry out the sentence--just as God's vengeance is seldom wreaked without the hand of man involved somewhere.

So sometimes the law is corporate and sometimes it is individual. And the state still has a job to do upholding God's law. And we, in our democratic society, still have a job to do to elect people that are willing and able to seek out God's law and enact in our own statutes.

Your post here is constructive. I don't know if I agree with your premise or conclusion. Your argument may not be correct.

Yes, there are courts.

Where does your idea of avenge murder come from? I don't know that it is Biblical.

No one escapes God's perfect justice, and we don't know that we are to enact justice on our own, saying that somehow we are God's agents for justice or correction.

There is a difference between right and wrong, and we have this as a foundation.

The penalty for murder is death. So no one should kill anyone else.

When the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, is it talking about how in Adam all die as the result of sin? See Romans 6:23 NASB. The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When is forgiveness appropriate? Is it appropriate at all times? It may be.

Do we truly know what the love of God is about, and eternal salvation with the forgiveness of sins? We should forgive that we would be forgiven. We are forgiven for our sins, and should make things right whether we have experienced God's forgiveness yet or not.

Romans 3:23 NASB. It is up to us to live righteously, making right decisions at all times. God can help us in Jesus Christ.

Should a murderer die? All who have sinned should die, and all have sinned. But none of us are to enact that death, it is up to God. Do not take personal vengeance, says the Bible, but leave room for the wrath of God.

Romans 12:19 NASB - 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

 

[jamie]

jamie, you are not being clear in what you are saying. In Acts there was observation of the feasts. Observing God's law is not the same as transgressing God's law, sorry.

So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow. (Acts 18:18)​

What did a vow require?

...then there will be the place where the LORD your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, and all your choice offerings which you vow to the LORD.
(Deuteronomy 12:11)

When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it for He has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed — better not to vow than to vow and not pay. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-5)​

Vows had to be paid at the place YHVH chose to place his name. In Paul's day that place was Jerusalem.

Paul was not required to make a vow, but once he had he needed to go to Jerusalem to pay his vow.

What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. Therefore do what we tell you, we have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. (Acts 21:22-25)​

The brethren in Cenchrea did not go to Jerusalem to keep Pentecost. Why not? They weren't required to do so and they didn't.

 

[Jacob]

So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow. (Acts 18:18)​

What did a vow require?

...then there will be the place where the LORD your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, and all your choice offerings which you vow to the LORD.
(Deuteronomy 12:11)

When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it for He has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you have vowed — better not to vow than to vow and not pay. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-5)​

Vows had to be paid at the place YHVH chose to place his name. In Paul's day that place was Jerusalem.

Paul was not required to make a vow, but once he had he needed to go to Jerusalem to pay his vow.

What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. Therefore do what we tell you, we have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. (Acts 21:22-25)​

The brethren in Cenchrea did not go to Jerusalem to keep Pentecost. Why not? They weren't required to do so and they didn't.

I think we were talking about the three annual feasts and now it is getting confused with vows.

 

[meshak]

No, Meshak, I am not saying we should observe most of the laws of Leviticus. I've already stated that Yeshua has fulfilled much of the Law and that much of it also is impossible to observe as the Temple and Levitical priesthood is no more. Then, on top of that, some of the Law only applies to some people. There's nothing wrong with observing the Feasts nor is there anything wrong with observing the dietary laws if it is in your heart to do so. Torah isn't different than Yeshua's Law. Consider His teaching as found in Matthew 5, 6 and 7. It's all about the Law. Torah is God's Law of Love and it shouldn't be hard to understand this and to see that God's Law exists from Genesis through Revelation. It's eternal and we can not dismiss it. If we are following Yeshua then we are following God's Law because Yeshua follows God's Law.

Ok, then what are you disagreeing?

 

[jamie]

I think we were talking about the three annual feasts and now it is getting confused with vows.

Who was required to keep the annual feasts, the Chinese, the North Koreans, the Romans, the Greeks?

Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles and they shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed. (Deuteronomy 16:16)​

To whom was this instruction addressed? Was it to the world in general or was it to those to whom Christ gave God's law through Moses?

Jacob, I'm not sure you will understand any of this, I suspect it will go over your head. Zoom.

 

[Jacob]

Who was required to keep the annual feasts, the Chinese, the North Koreans, the Romans, the Greeks?

Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God in the place which He chooses: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles and they shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed. (Deuteronomy 16:16)​

To whom was this instruction addressed? Was it to the world in general or was it to those to whom Christ gave God's law through Moses?

Jacob, I'm not sure you will understand any of this, I suspect it will go over your head. Zoom.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have observed these three feasts in the United States of America where I live. I am a United States citizen. I am circumcised, but I have never been to Israel.

 

[jamie]

I think we were talking about the three annual feasts and now it is getting confused with vows.

It's simple, Paul went to Jerusalem to pay his vow, not to sacrifice an animal.

We don't know if Paul made it to Jerusalem by Pentecost.

 

[jamie]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Don't I know it.

 

[Jacob]

It's simple, Paul went to Jerusalem to pay his vow, not to sacrifice an animal.

We don't know if Paul made it to Jerusalem by Pentecost.

There are two places in the scriptures that talk about Paul and a vow he made. One of them refers to sacrifice.

Here are the references to (the feast of) unleavened bread in Acts.

Acts 12:3 NASB - 3 When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to arrest Peter also. Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread.

Acts 20:6 NASB - 6 We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days.

Here are the references in the same to Pentecost.

Acts 2:1 NASB - 1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.

Acts 20:16 NASB - 16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be in Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost.

Here are a couple of New Testament references not in the book of Acts.

1 Corinthians 5:8 NASB - 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

1 Corinthians 16:8 NASB - 8 But I will remain in Ephesus until Pentecost;

 

[Jacob]

Don't I know it.

I'm not sure what you mean.

I do keep God's Law, but not all of it. I do not wear tzit-tzit, for example. As a circumcised new covenant believer I don't know if this or keeping old covenant law (or all of the old covenant law) is required of me, though I choose to observe the Law voluntarily, having already been saved in having become a Christian after having been born a Gentile. I now observe Jewish things, old covenant and new covenant. It is a joy to me. I don't know why you would ever want to speak against these things.

 

[jamie]

1 Corinthians 5:8 NASB - 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

The law was changed and one of the changes was the observance of Passover. For example: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat, this is My body which is broken for you, do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes." (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

Did the Torah permit Gentiles to observe Passover?

And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it." (Exodus 12:43)​

All believers may partake of the NT Passover as Paul defined it to the Corinthians. A big change.

What does Passover mean to the Jews?

It is a night of solemn observance to the LORD for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the LORD, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations. (Exodus 12:42)​

We did not come out of the land of Egypt so we observe the Passover for a different reason. Paul said, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes." (1 Corinthians 11:26)

What is your reason for observing Passover?

 

[Jacob]

The law was changed and one of the changes was the observance of Passover. For example: "For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat, this is My body which is broken for you, do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes." (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

Did the Torah permit Gentiles to observe Passover?

And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it." (Exodus 12:43)​

All believers may partake of the NT Passover as Paul defined it to the Corinthians. A big change.

What does Passover mean to the Jews?

It is a night of solemn observance to the LORD for bringing them out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the LORD, a solemn observance for all the children of Israel throughout their generations. (Exodus 12:42)​

We did not come out of the land of Egypt so we observe the Passover for a different reason. Paul said, "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes." (1 Corinthians 11:26)

What is your reason for observing Passover?

I observe Passover because it is commanded, God's appointed time for us to meet with Him. As a circumcised believer I can find my identity in Israel, even as a convert or proselyte of Judaism and Israel. So, I am both Jewish and Christian, both by choice.

 

[jamie]

I observe Passover because it is commanded, God's appointed time for us to meet with Him. As a circumcised believer I can find my identity in Israel, even as a convert or proselyte of Judaism and Israel. So, I am both Jewish and Christian, both by choice.

They are mutually exclusive.

The Law of Moses is not a smorgasbord where you pick and choose.

 

[Jacob]

They are mutually exclusive.

The Law of Moses is not a smorgasbord where you pick and choose.

The Law of Moses can be for the Jew and the Christian. The new covenant can be for the Jew and the Greek/Gentile.