Why would God need a hell?

[Prizebeatz1]

You have loosened your grip on sound doctrine


2 Timothy 4:2 KJV - 2 Timothy 4:3 KJV - 2 Timothy 4:4 KJV -

I thought the doctrine was sound too. That is why I held on for 35 years. Don't get me wrong, it still has its merits. The problem was I was depending on it for self-worth. I had settled for something less than infinite and eternal. That's really a painful loss. It affected not only me, but everyone around me as well. There was lots and lots of heavy grieving as I came into this realization. I don't blame people for not wanting to deal with it. It's much easier and more convenient to simply forget about it. But it caught up to me in the long run. I see how this theme of false self-worth has actually affected the entire history of humanity.

 

[way 2 go]

I thought that you believed the penalty was everlasting torment, not death.

physical death followed by eternal spiritual death

 

[Mickiel]

Notice some interesting things about God in Lam. 3:32, " Though he causes grief." Wow, there is it again. Notice verse 38, " Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Wow!

 

[way 2 go]

Not sure how this answers Prizebeatz1 statement, but take this for a 'spin' -


Don't forget, the levitcal laws were written for Jews (and some expressly for the Jewish priests only), not Gentiles or the whole world. Also note that modern day Jews do not even follow these old tribal laws of putting people to 'death' (this means a physical death, by stoning or some other method), but instead 'interpret' these 'rules' metaphorically, or figuratively. Show us where the modern day government of Israel carries out ANY of the penalties listed in the Torah, and especially enforcing DEATH. It stands to question what value these rules even have.

love hates evil
but not karma,
karma seeks out evil,
wants a balance of evil :vomit:

Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.

'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'".

 

[way 2 go]

Do we honestly believe Jesus who was God, as so many people believe, would do something like that? Can you give me one example? What about when the crowd tried to stone the woman caught in adultery?

Jesus is God and for the death penalty

Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'".

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Jesus is God and for the death penalty

Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'".

These are scenarios that never actually happened. I think this is a clear example of how interpretations can be bent to suit whatever view we are espousing. People justified slavery in the same way for a long time. In a very similar way the current systems of today are keeping people away from feeling their own infinite self-worth. It's profitable for people not to know about their inner divinity. Have we ever asked who are the ones who stand to gain something from this? It is not okay for people to live their entire lives without true self-worth. It is an abomination.

 

[Aimiel]

These are scenarios that never actually happened.

Doesn't make them lies. Jesus not only speaks Truth, He also IS Truth. :duh:

... the current systems of today are keeping people away from feeling their own infinite self-worth. It's profitable for people not to know about their inner divinity. Have we ever asked who are the ones who stand to gain something from this? It is not okay for people to live their entire lives without true self-worth. It is an abomination.

Inner Divinity is new age hogwash. It's an abomination. Simply stating such dregs reveals your own inner demon. Self-worth is Satan's biggest flaw. He wants us to have an inflated sense of self-worth, also. He wants us consumed by the greatest sin: selfishness. Knowing God and seeing His Worth is what we need to be about. We deserve hell. He gives us eternal life, if we only believe in Him, not in ourselves. You not only missed the mark, you started playing for the dark side.

 

[freelight]

Actions have consequences............

Actions have consequences............

love hates evil
but not karma,
karma seeks out evil,
wants a balance of evil :vomit:

You have a misunderstanding of the law of karma, apparently....since it doesn't seek out evil, but is an impersonal law governing all cause/effect relationships, actions and consequences. 'Karma' simply means 'action' which includes all its effects.

Do not be deceived, God(law) is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. - Gal. 6:7

This is universal law. Action-sequence-consequence. Yes, this law evens out all scores, in perfect measure, in rightful proportion, it is equitable, wholly fair, the natural course of movement and its effects. One only reaps what he sows, and no less or more, so is responsible only for that measure, which is measured back to him. The 'law of compensation' is wholly proportionate, never excessive as in the horrid doctrine of ECT.

Some different perspectives on karma:

The Law of Compensation

Karma: The Law of Order and Opportunity

~*~*~

A thread on 'karma' may come in due time.

 

[freelight]

Jesus is for the death penalty

Mat 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'".

The first reference is not an order to enforce a 'death penalty'.

The second reference is a parable.

Not a very good score card.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Doesn't make them lies. Jesus not only speaks Truth, He also IS Truth. :duh:

Inner Divinity is new age hogwash. It's an abomination. Simply stating such dregs reveals your own inner demon. Self-worth is Satan's biggest flaw. He wants us to have an inflated sense of self-worth, also. He wants us consumed by the greatest sin: selfishness. Knowing God and seeing His Worth is what we need to be about. We deserve hell. He gives us eternal life, if we only believe in Him, not in ourselves. You not only missed the mark, you started playing for the dark side.

What have you traded in place for your infinite self-worth? It's no wonder we have drowned in a sea of our own self-hatred. Do you not feel the harshness and viciousness of the judgements of your own personality? That kind of energy does not come from God. What's really selfish is trying to attack and prevent others from knowing their own value because you cannot feel your own. THAT is truly selfish.

 

[Mickiel]

Doesn't make them lies. Jesus not only speaks Truth, He also IS Truth. :duh:

Inner Divinity is new age hogwash. It's an abomination. Simply stating such dregs reveals your own inner demon. Self-worth is Satan's biggest flaw. He wants us to have an inflated sense of self-worth, also. He wants us consumed by the greatest sin: selfishness. Knowing God and seeing His Worth is what we need to be about. We deserve hell. He gives us eternal life, if we only believe in Him, not in ourselves. You not only missed the mark, you started playing for the dark side.

Inner divinity is our future with God, those who apply it now are just Kings before their time. The New age people are right about some things, but they just have their timing wrong; they are seeing it too soon, applying it to an age it was not meant for. Christianity is no different, you are Kings before your time. You start out giving Prizebeatz1 decent advice, then you turn and start talking about hell and the darkside. Because your obsessed with it , as he is obsessed with the personality thingy; there is no difference with either obsession. Its how you are seeing now. Its what you think your called to do. At least Prizebeatz1 obsession with his knowledge has a future merit, we will become divine beings.

But your darkside and hell are targeted for death; there is no future in neither.

 

[Mickiel]

I am not a fan of eternal torment, for humans or demons; something about it bothers me; there is something there that is not right; and as usual, I think its man who has it wrong. I can't see God punishing humans alive for eternity, I KNOW that will not happen! That is an insanity that many believers are just flat out deceived with. I don't know what he will do with demons. I have a gut feeling that God will just " Will them out of existence." Because they were temporary existence and will be no longer needed. But I am not really sure.

Listen to what the demons said to Jesus in Matt. 8:29, "And behold, they cried out saying, What have we to do with you, Jesus, thou Son of God? Have you come to torment us " Before the time?" Listen to that! Isn't that interesting? They were obviously afraid of Jesus; but then they mention this " Time of future torment";

two things here then; one, the demons themselves are aware of their future, and they know they must face a time of torment. So they already know they are going to loose; they already know they themselves are doomed; they already know that they cannot beat God, so WHY are they doing this evil to humanity? Well I think its because its all they know to do. They are doing and being what they were created to be.

A Dog is going to be a dog, a cat will behave like a cat; they are only living how they were designed to live, they cannot do anythingelse. They are locked into instinctive existence! And I think so are demons. And so I question punishing them for all eternity, for doing what they were created to do. And they were created evil, this religious story about them once being good, then changing their nature to evil is hogwash! These spirit beings were created locked into their existence! They do as they are told by God and Christ to do; that's it! Period! There was no great angelic rebellion; nobody rebels against God in heaven; nobody!

 

[serpentdove]

Notice some interesting things about God in Lam. 3:32, " Though he causes grief." Wow, there is it again. Notice verse 38, " Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Wow!

All was good (Ge 1:31). All became bad (Ge 3:1–5).

"La 3:32. The punishments of the godly are but for a time.
La 3:38. evil … good—Calamity and prosperity alike proceed from God (Job 2:10; Is 45:7; Am 3:6)." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 1, p. 563). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Mickiel]

I am not a fan of eternal torment, for humans or demons; something about it bothers me; there is something there that is not right; and as usual, I think its man who has it wrong. I can't see God punishing humans alive for eternity, I KNOW that will not happen! That is an insanity that many believers are just flat out deceived with. I don't know what he will do with demons. I have a gut feeling that God will just " Will them out of existence." Because they were temporary existence and will be no longer needed. But I am not really sure.

Listen to what the demons said to Jesus in Matt. 8:29, "And behold, they cried out saying, What have we to do with you, Jesus, thou Son of God? Have you come to torment us " Before the time?" Listen to that! Isn't that interesting? They were obviously afraid of Jesus; but then they mention this " Time of future torment";

two things here then; one, the demons themselves are aware of their future, and they know they must face a time of torment. So they already know they are going to loose; they already know they themselves are doomed; they already know that they cannot beat God, so WHY are they doing this evil to humanity? Well I think its because its all they know to do. They are doing and being what they were created to be.

A Dog is going to be a dog, a cat will behave like a cat; they are only living how they were designed to live, they cannot do anythingelse. They are locked into instinctive existence! And I think so are demons. And so I question punishing them for all eternity, for doing what they were created to do. And they were created evil, this religious story about them once being good, then changing their nature to evil is hogwash! These spirit beings were created locked into their existence! They do as they are told by God and Christ to do; that's it! Period! There was no great angelic rebellion; nobody rebels against God in heaven; nobody!

A dog was created to be a dog, a fly was created to be a fly, demons were created to be demons; its what they are. They are evil, its all they know to be! They were NOT good before and then turned evil, no! They were liars and killers from their beginning, designed to rape the world. They KNOW they are doomed, and they want humans to feel that way; they want religion to teach humans that demon destiny, is also human destiny. They are NOT in a war with God, they are NOT competing with God; they are doing what they are supposed to do. They already know they will not destroy humanity, they already know that all of humanity is saved.

They know!

They are NOT doing what they do to gain advantage, they are doing it because its all they know to do. Something superior made them like that.

 

[serpentdove]

"I am not a fan of eternal torment, for humans or demons; something about it bothers me..."

We've noticed (Jn 3:36). :smokie:

"I can't see God punishing humans alive for eternity, I know that will not happen!"

Proof please (Eph 4:14). each:

"Listen to what the demons said to Jesus in Matt. 8:29, "And behold, they cried out saying, What have we to do with you, Jesus, thou Son of God? Have you come to torment us " Before the time?" Listen to that! Isn't that interesting? They were obviously afraid of Jesus; but then they mention this "Time of future torment"; two things here then; one, the demons themselves are aware of their future, and they know they must face a time of torment. So they already know they are going to loose; they already know they themselves are doomed; they already know that they cannot beat God, so why are they doing this evil to humanity? Well I think its because its all they know to do. They are doing and being what they were created to be."

All was good (Ge 1:31). All includes angels. They fell due to pride (Is. 14:12–15; Jude 6). They make war on the saints (Rev. 12:7–17). Don't hate us because we're beautiful (Jn 14:21).

"A dog is going to be a dog, a cat will behave like a cat; they are only living how they were designed to live, they cannot do anything else. They are locked into instinctive existence! And I think so are demons. And so I question punishing them for all eternity, for doing what they were created to do."

Angels were created good (Ge 1:31). They fell due to pride (Is. 14:12–15; Jude 6).

"And they were created evil, this religious story about them once being good, then changing their nature to evil is hogwash! These spirit beings were created locked into their existence! They do as they are told by God and Christ to do; that's it! Period!"

They understand authority (Jude 9).

"There was no great angelic rebellion; nobody rebels against God in heaven; nobody!"

They sided with Lucifer (Re 12:4). :scripto: Note to self--don't side with losers . :loser:

See:

Did one third of the angels fall with Lucifer?

 

[serpentdove]

"A dog was created to be a dog, a fly was created to be a fly, demons were created to be demons..."

They were created good (Ge 1:31).

"...t's what they are."

It's what they now are (Luke 10:17, 18). They were not originally evil (Ge 1:31). Men and angels were given a will.

"They are evil, its all they know to be! They were not good before and then turned evil..."

They were created good (Ge 1:31).

"They were liars and killers from their beginning, designed to rape the world."

They were created good (Ge 1:31).

"First tell the truth, then give your opinion." :juggle: ~ Dennis Prager

"They know they are doomed, and they want humans to feel that way; they want religion to teach humans that demon destiny, is also human destiny."

Fallen angels and the unregenerate go into the Lake of Fire (Re 19:29, 21:8).

"They are not in a war with God..."

They are at war with his saints (1 Tim. 4:1, Rev. 12:7–17).

"[T]hey are not competing with God; they are doing what they are supposed to do."

They obey Satan (Matt. 12:24–30). He'll incarnate a pope soon. linger: Then he'll put on that fish goddess crown and look even more stupid (Re 19:20).

"...They already know they will not destroy humanity, they already know that all of humanity is saved."

They mix truth with error (Ga 5:9, 1 Tim. 4:1). They are unclean (Matt. 10:1). :granite:

"They know! They are not doing what they do to gain advantage, they are doing it because it's all they know to do."

Our heroes would rather die themselves then see their loved ones go to hell (e.g. Moses, David, Paul). :idunno:

 

[Mickiel]

Notice again Jesus as he teaches in John 8:44, " You are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father you will do; He was a murderer " From the Beginning". Or from his beginning, or his birth; or his creation. He was created to be what he is. God and Jesus don't make mistakes; there was never a mistake in heaven, the Christians are teaching that God created spirit beings who changed and rebelled against his will, when no such thing is possible. In Isaiah 54:16, God speaking, " I created the waster to Destroy!" This is satans birth, his reason for being created! But satan is using Christianity to create a softer version of his existence, the devil wants people to believe he once was a good being, because he knows that makes God look bad.

Its right there in Gen. 3:1, but only discerning eyes can see it; the serpent, or satan, that great dragon; was more subtil than any other beast that God had MADE! God had satan made. No being in heaven " Evolved' into somethingelse later! Evolution is a deception that Christianity has applied to satan. The devil did NOT evolve, the devil did not create his own character after rejecting his God given one; John 1:3, he was Made! And he stayed like he was from his beginning. Christ created him, Col. 1:16.

 

[serpentdove]

"Notice again Jesus as he teaches in John 8:44, " You are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father you will do; He was a murderer " From the Beginning". Or from his beginning, or his birth; or his creation."

Lucifer was created perfectly (Is. 14:12, Ezek. 28:14–19). He fell. Angels who followed him fell as well (Re 12:4).

"He was created to be what he is."

He was created good (Ge 1:31).

"Christians are teaching that God created spirit beings who changed and rebelled against his will, when no such thing is possible. In Isaiah 54:16, God speaking, " I created the waster to Destroy!" This is Satan's birth, his reason for being created!"

"The Imperative of Confidence (Is 54:4–17)

The shame of Zion’s youth (idolatry) and her widowhood (exile) would be remembered no more. For a brief time she was separated from her divine Husband. Now, however, because of his great compassion, he would call her to renew the relationship. That reunion would have eternal implications. God’s new commitment to Zion would be as irrevocable as the covenant he made with Noah after the Flood. Never again would the Lord be angry with Zion (54:4–10).

In Isaiah’s day Zion was afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted. The New Jerusalem—the community of the redeemed—would be constructed of glorious materials (cf. Rev 21:19f.). The citizens of that place would have superior knowledge of God’s will (cf. John 6:45). Consequently they would enjoy prosperity and peace. God’s people would build upon a foundation of righteousness, and thus they would be secure. Those who might attack Zion would fall. No weapon made by man would be powerful enough to destroy the faithful. Every word spoken against spiritual Zion would be condemned by the truth which abides in God’s people (54:11–17)." Smith, J. E. (1992). The Major Prophets (Is 54:4–17). Joplin, MO: College Press.

"...[T]he devil wants people to believe he once was a good being..."

Ge 1:31, Is 14:12, Ezek. 28:14–19

"...because he knows that makes God look bad."

God is good (Ps. 31:19). All that he created was good (Ge 1:31).

"It's right there in Gen. 3:1..the serpent, or Satan, that great dragon...God had Satan made."

Lucifer was created perfectly (Ge 1:31, Is 14:12) until sin came (Ezek. 28:14–19). He was lifted up in pride (Is. 14:12–20) and fell (Rev. 12:7–9).

"No being in heaven evolved into something."

:yawn: Evolution is false (Ge 1:1-3). Beings [angels and men] were created good (Ge 1:31).

"...John 1:3, he was made!"

He was made good (Ge 1:31).

"Christ created him, Col. 1:16."

Christ created him perfectly (Ezek. 28:14-19).

 

[Mickiel]

Lucifer was created perfectly (Is. 14:12, Ezek. 28:14–19). He fell. Angels who followed him fell as well (Re 12:4).).

The devil is not Lucifer. Look at Isaiah 14:16, Lucifer is described as being " A Man." 16, "Those who see you shall narrowly look on you, and consider you, saying; " Is this " The Man" who made the earth tremble." This is talking about a man, not a spirit being.

In Ezk. 28:18-19, notice the end of this being, who is NOT satan; 18, " I will bring fire from the midst of you, it will devour you, and I will bring you to ashes upon the earth. Vs. 19, " Never shall you exist any more." This being is obviously burnt to a crisp; its not satan.

Oh I forgot one more verse, Ezk. 28:9 describes who this Prince of Tyre is;, " Will you yet say before him that I slay you, I am God? But you " Shall BE A MAN, and no God, in the hand of him who slays you." This Prince of Tyre is a man who gets slain, it is NOT the devil.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Inner divinity is our future with God, those who apply it now are just Kings before their time. The New age people are right about some things, but they just have their timing wrong; they are seeing it too soon, applying it to an age it was not meant for. Christianity is no different, you are Kings before your time. You start out giving Prizebeatz1 decent advice, then you turn and start talking about hell and the darkside. Because your obsessed with it , as he is obsessed with the personality thingy; there is no difference with either obsession. Its how you are seeing now. Its what you think your called to do. At least Prizebeatz1 obsession with his knowledge has a future merit, we will become divine beings.

But your darkside and hell are targeted for death; there is no future in neither.

The divinity of the soul does not depend on time. It is right here and right now. Our souls are connected to what is infinite, eternal and timeless. We don't have to wait until we're dead to experience this. In fact we have to do it while we are alive.