Why would God need a hell?

[KingdomRose]

Do you think God would tell you to kill your son? If he did, would that be a good thing? Well he told Abram to do it, sacrifice his own son; but he stopped him from doing it; but he wanted to know if Abram would do it. That wasn't such a nice thing, now was it? Somethingelse interesting that God did in 1 Kings 22:23, " Now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets, and God has spoken evil concerning them."

Interesting, this God we serve, and what we THINK he is like.

Here God himself actually places a spirit of lying inside of these prophets, then he speaks evil about them.

Hello!

God does this same thing again in 2 Chron. 18:21-22. He puts a lying spirit inside of the consciousness of these men, then he speaks evil about them.

Hello!

Hmmm I thought I addressed this idea already, but maybe my memory fails me. Anyway, if we are to harmonize those verses with all the others that say that God is "righteous, loving, merciful, just, fair, etc., etc.," there is another way to take them. God ALLOWS people to do just what they want to do, and when people want to do something evil they will do it regardless of what is said to them. Jehovah doesn't speak evil as if to denigrate them as human beings, but He "speaks calamity concerning them" meaning that what He has determined to do against the wickedness of certain ones will indeed cause the wicked ones calamity---well deserved.

If you want to believe God is unrighteous, that is your prerogative. Throw your Bible right out in the rubbish pile. Nothing will dissuade you from that.


As for me, I believe the passages that show God to be the opposite of what you are saying He is:

"The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He." (Deuteronomy 32:4, NASB)

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16, NASB)

 

[Mickiel]

the 'death of death' does not make sense

do you not think the soul can die?

Well it may not make sense to you, but its exactly what the verse states; " Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death." Death and the grave are not humans, they are situations that God gets rid of here.

And yes, I do think God could kill the soul, or the consciousness of a human, if he wanted to.

 

[Mickiel]

Hmmm I thought I addressed this idea already, but maybe my memory fails me. Anyway, if we are to harmonize those verses with all the others that say that God is "righteous, loving, merciful, just, fair, etc., etc.," there is another way to take them. God ALLOWS people to do just what they want to do, and when people want to do something evil they will do it regardless of what is said to them. Jehovah doesn't speak evil as if to denigrate them as human beings, but He "speaks calamity concerning them" meaning that what He has determined to do against the wickedness of certain ones will indeed cause the wicked ones calamity---well deserved.

If you want to believe God is unrighteous, that is your prerogative. Throw your Bible right out in the rubbish pile. Nothing will dissuade you from that.

I don't believe God is unrighteous, but I do believe those verses, that God can put lies in peoples mouths if he wants to.

 

[KingdomRose]

Its cold and snowing here.

Here in Connecticut it is 30 degrees, cloudy, no wind to speak of. Yesterday we had some rain.:rain:

 

[Mickiel]

I think many believers in God just don't understand how God deals with evil; uses it like he does. Again Isaiah 45: 7, " I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things!" Now God does these things, uses these things in all kinds of situations, and its nothing a believer in God can do or say to alter this reality. God is involved with the evil in this world.

 

[chrysostom]

Well it may not make sense to you, but its exactly what the verse states; " Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death." Death and the grave are not humans, they are situations that God gets rid of here.

And yes, I do think God could kill the soul, or the consciousness of a human, if he wanted to.

do you think God wants anyone to suffer eternally?

 

[KingdomRose]

No it is not. The second death, as clearly described in Rev. 20:14 is the first death being cast into the Lake of Fire; so notice, death is destroyed BEFORE the event in verse 15, " And whoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the Lake of Fire!" Now death is already gone and disposed of, so these humans don't die. There are not punished forever, so somethingelse must happen to them;

and I believe that is a short period of punishment, followed by being born again. And that " fits God."

Death being cast into the lake of fire means that it is done away with....ended.

To be "born again" one must have accepted Christ's sacrifice and started doing what Jesus said to do. All of the ones who will reign with him in heaven will have been chosen before Armageddon.

If I remember correctly you once said that the verses in the Bible don't always follow in chronological order. Keep that in mind when reading the scriptures under discussion. But as I go back over them, I don't see where you get it that death was done away with before the ones who were "not found written in the book of life" were hurled into the lake of fire (eternal destruction). It seems to me that they were thrown in the LOF around the same time.:burnlib:

 

[KingdomRose]

One thing is certain...

The second death is NOT eternal life being tortured alive forever. Why is that so hard for them to understand???

I believe you are correct. The "second death" is the permanent death from which no one will be resurrected (as they will be from the first death, the death we inherited from Adam). Therefore, there is no support for roasting anybody in unending agony.

 

[KingdomRose]

I think many believers in God just don't understand how God deals with evil; uses it like he does. Again Isaiah 45: 7, " I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things!" Now God does these things, uses these things in all kinds of situations, and its nothing a believer in God can do or say to alter this reality. God is involved with the evil in this world.

I replied to your earlier post wherein you cited the same verses. I thought I gave a pretty good response. I guess you skipped over it. My point was mainly that God "creates evil" only in the respect that He brings discipline through harsh measures on the wicked people, because of their wickedness. This proves "evil" or, a better term: calamity for those wicked people that are being punished for their evil deeds. It is calamitous for them. Do we get the difference here?

 

[Mickiel]

do you think God wants anyone to suffer eternally?

No I do not. I believe he wants every human to be forgiven, be cleansed and changed into a spirit being of no sin, and to live with him forever. That's exactly what God " Wants", now what believers in him want is a different thing; that much is obvious. They want some horrible things, eternal suffering or eternal death for many people.

But that is NOT what God wants. And the bible clearly shows what God wants, but what people believe, is simply stronger than the bible, in their minds; their religion has stamped their consciousness.

In 1 Tim. 2:3-4 it is GOOD, and it is ACCEPTABLE --- in the SIGHT of God, who WILL have ALL men to be saved! So universal salvation is BOTH good and acceptable TO GOD, but its NOT acceptable to the believers in God. The believers of God have accepted eternal punishing or death for unbelievers.

 

[Mickiel]

I replied to your earlier post wherein you cited the same verses. I thought I gave a pretty good response. I guess you skipped over it. My point was mainly that God "creates evil" only in the respect that He brings discipline through harsh measures on the wicked people, because of their wickedness. This proves "evil" or, a better term: calamity for those wicked people that are being punished for their evil deeds. It is calamitous for them. Do we get the difference here?

In my view, there is no limit to the evil God created, it cannot be " Softened" or reduced in its nature. There is no such thing as a " Softer evil called calamity". Evil is evil, period! And God created it and is Lord over it.

 

[Mickiel]

Do you know what the " Leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees is" in Matt. 16:6? Jesus warned to " Beware of it."

The leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees is belief in eternal hell punishing; look it up for yourself. Ask yourself why you are allowing it to rape your belief.

 

[Mickiel]

Did you know that Jesus was sent to earth to destroy the works of the devil? Read that in 1 John 3:8. Let me ask you something about what your religion is teaching you. If you are being taught that millions of humans are going to be in some hell, what happened to them when Jesus destroyed satans work? What, they just got left out? They missed the train? Jesus destroyed all the works of satan, " Except" these millions your religion claims are condemned?

Riddle me this? Explain that to me?

 

[freelight]

Suffering, leading to repentance......

Suffering, leading to repentance......

do you think God wants anyone to suffer eternally?

Love's nature and will could never intend or wish such upon any sentient being.

ECT is as insane as it is illogical. On principle alone and with view to the divine character and wisdom of 'God', it does not hold true (at least in the way traditional literalists have assumed).

As long as there is 'sowing' and 'reaping', action and consequence (karmic law, interaction)....one suffers only to the degree and proportion or their sin (transgression of law), measure for measure, and not anymore or less, as the law is perfect in its 'compensation', and justly so. (hence an eternity of punishment or suffering for sins of a finite quality or duration is unequitable)

Suffering usually tends towards a corrective effect of restoration and a return to lawful harmonic relations, which is the only way a soul can absolve/resolve its suffering, by re-turning to 'God' (via repentance) where the effects of sin are no more, remedied by a return to Love.

 

[Mickiel]

Sometimes I wonder if some of these believers even read the bible at all? I mean, what are they seeing? Explain to me what you see in Jude 1:21, " Keep yourselves in the Love of God, looking for the Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ " Unto Eternal Life!" The mercy of Jesus and God leads " unto eternal life!' Not eternal death; LIFE!

The Mercy of Jesus leads to life! So we " Keep ourselves in the Love of God", by keeping this Godly principle of Mercy that leads to life. How can you see anythingelse in this scripture, besides Mercy leading to eternal life? In verse 24 it reveals that Christ and God are ABLE to keep us from " Falling", but yet this ungodly teaching called " The Fall of man", is dominating the minds of interested believers. They keep calling it" The Fall', as if its something that happened against God's will.

Religion is ripe with deception.

 

[Mickiel]

You know something I really don't understand, why would God need a hell like religions are describing, when he has a Jesus? What is it that Jesus can't do, where God would need a geographic location in eternity to herd humans into, because they were beyond the reach and ability of Christ?

Can you read?

Look at Rev. 1:5, " From Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness and first begotten of the dead, the Prince of the Kings of the earth. Unto him that LOVES us and has washed us from our sins in his own blood!" Jesus loves us and has cancelled out the penalty of sin, there is no need for some hell in eternity; hell is a myth that teaches Jesus is a failure. So why is religion embracing hell so much?

Well one reason they embrace hell, is because its their hearts desire. They want it to be true; they want it to happen to unbelievers! That is why they are cheerleaders for hell. They undermine the power and love of Christ to save.

 

[tudorturtl]

It does not make sense to me, if a human rejects God and lives that way for 70 years, what kind of legal or fair justice would then punish that human for an eternity; the punishment does not fit the crime, and it does not match the reputation of God.

I don't believe it's a punishment so much as giving them the desires of their heart. in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man could not be helped because he created that chasm during the time that Lazarus was outside his door suffering while he had the means to help. the command is to Love your neighbor as yourself. If you can watch people suffer and do nothing then you will live according to your own rules. If every man is made in the image of God then what you do to them is what you do to him.

 

[Mickiel]

I don't believe it's a punishment so much as giving them the desires of their heart. in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man could not be helped because he created that chasm during the time that Lazarus was outside his door suffering while he had the means to help. the command is to Love your neighbor as yourself. If you can watch people suffer and do nothing then you will live according to your own rules. If every man is made in the image of God then what you do to them is what you do to him.

I just would not want to be an unbeliever who's fate was being left up to Christianity, I would be doomed for sure! Don't leave me in their hands, just debating some of them here, I have seen them tell me I am going to their hell, because I believe in the salvation of all.

Imagine that, here I am a believer in God, Christ and the bible, yet because I disagree with them, they " Decide I am fodder for their hell." Imagine what 100 judges like that would do with unbelievers in the world; they would put believers in their hell in seconds, no need of a trial, unbelievers would not stand a chance.

 

[tudorturtl]

Sometimes I wonder if some of these believers even read the bible at all? I mean, what are they seeing? Explain to me what you see in Jude 1:21, " Keep yourselves in the Love of God, looking for the Mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ " Unto Eternal Life!" The mercy of Jesus and God leads " unto eternal life!' Not eternal death; LIFE!

The Mercy of Jesus leads to life! So we " Keep ourselves in the Love of God", by keeping this Godly principle of Mercy that leads to life. How can you see anythingelse in this scripture, besides Mercy leading to eternal life? In verse 24 it reveals that Christ and God are ABLE to keep us from " Falling", but yet this ungodly teaching called " The Fall of man", is dominating the minds of interested believers. They keep calling it" The Fall', as if its something that happened against God's will.

Religion is ripe with deception.

Are we slaves or do we have free-will? Genesis explains that we were created by God and given choices we could follow him and live eternally or decide for ourselves what is good and evil, usurping God's authority, forsaking God's safety, and go where that takes us. Jesus is Gods mercy giving us a chance to repent and come back to him.

 

[tudorturtl]

Did you know that Jesus was sent to earth to destroy the works of the devil? Read that in 1 John 3:8. Let me ask you something about what your religion is teaching you. If you are being taught that millions of humans are going to be in some hell, what happened to them when Jesus destroyed satans work? What, they just got left out? They missed the train? Jesus destroyed all the works of satan, " Except" these millions your religion claims are condemned?

Riddle me this? Explain that to me?

the key word is might, there is a condition, and is clearly laid out in his teaching