Why would God need a hell?

[freelight]

Infinite Love Omnipresent..............

Infinite Love Omnipresent..............

Commenting on my last post here.

This is the apex of this entire thread.

Thanks John,

An 'apex' entirely transcending the whole 'cult-ure-concept' of 'hell' - if the 'soul' and 'God' are already one, there can be no separation, except what is obscuring or preventing the realization or re-cognition of it.

In Omnipresence, where 'God' fills all space (God is all in all), you cannot be 'seperated' from the Omnipresent One, much less for 'eternity'. Time, space pose no barrier to the Infinite. 'Hell' is a concept, idea, assumption of justice, but the law of retribution (karma) already takes care of action/consequence sequences, since seeds sown must be reaped in 'time'.....there will be a harvest. - but such 'sowings' & 'reapings' are relative to their degree and measures,....and only endure as long as those actions are taking place. - they are proportionate.

As far as the thread-title goes,...'God' doesn't need anything. It just so happens that man has invented various theologies or concepts of 'hell' tailored to his own understanding of retribution or the afterlife, further laden with 'translation' problems when put into English, giving false impressions that violate reason and spurn any real concept of justice or mercy, further blighting the good character of God, whose Love is either absent or powerless to save suffering souls. Love would do all in its power to save, redeem, restore,.....and not the opposite which is to forfeit, annul and deny the soul's inherent worth and potential to fulfill its life purpose and reason for existence.

 

[freelight]

We don't send anyone to hell. God does that. Lk 19:27

I don't see anything in that 'parable' about God sending people to hell :idunno:

 

[freelight]

Poz reps.......

Poz reps.......

+1

Remember to pos rep those posts you agree with, and return the favor of those who pos rep you. Look at your User CP page to see who has repped and left comments for you

God is Love.

 

[freelight]

thank 'God' for universal truths recognized in paganism, or any other "ism"

thank 'God' for universal truths recognized in paganism, or any other "ism"

Modern day Christianity has been profoundly shaped by Greek paganism and Roman imperialism. Soon after Christ death, Christians began to assimilate the magical mind set that characterized pagan thinking. The Christian funeral, even having a meal to honor the dead, came straight out of paganism in the 3rd century. Building a shrine over a burial place and calling it holy was also a pagan practice. Putting decorations on these burial places or using art, is straight out of paganism! Using a " Crucifix" as art came from this pagan back round and first appeared in the 5th century.

Of course, it arose with elements of its own and incorporated an amalgam of philosophical concepts, allegories and archetypes from older and neighboring pagan cultures/mythology, but such is the evolution of 'religious thought' and belief,...partly 'evolutionary' and partly 'revelational' in its aspects. I would give credit to the universal themes and archetypes recognized in pagan belief-systems, since the Catholic Church naturally incorporated them because their universal 'truth' in nature and their symbology representing man's own religious experience, the cycles of transformation of the soul (the concept of birth, death, re-birth heralded in the seasons/equinoxes)...these are truths in the Book of Nature, which mirror the movements of soul and spirit.

The whole "story" of Jesus represents to us the God-light or principle incarnate in Man, where 'Christ' is being formed in us, the hope of glory (the seed or essence of immortality), where we die with Christ, are buried, arise and are glorified with him, - note the process of birth, death, rebirth...these are all mirrored in the story of Nature, the procession of the cosmos. The macrocosm of the Universal Soul is expressed in the microcosm of man's soul, for "as is above, so is below; as below, so it is above". Consciousness is a 'mirror' for all realities to reflect and express themselves.

No less, 'heaven' and 'hell' are conditions of consciousness, qualities of mind, and exist non-locally and individually experienced by the quality and condition of one's own mentality or way of being. There is no 'hell' except what is buried or hidden from man's own awareness, or that he is steeped in the darkness of ignorance or error, not seeing the birthless/deathless reality of his own inner essence or consciousness, which is 'God'. - all else are just temporary assumptions of matter, passing appearances that come and go,...while the essence that is the root of 'being' remains/retains its true nature (unborn, deathless, timeless).

 

[freelight]

:yawn: God is merciful (1 Pet. 1:3).

Yes, and did you forget that 'mercy triumphs over justice'? Or more rightly, divine love and wisdom governs with the perfect balance and synthesis of justice and mercy, so that Love does all in its power to save, redeem and restore all God-potential and possibilities in all souls and all worlds.

Did you ever consider that God's Love is INFINITE?

 

[Mickiel]

Would you put yourself in your version of hell? Or would you find a way of escape for your self? Do you love your neighbor enough to save them from your hell? Do you love your neighbor like you love yourself? Eph. 5:14.

If Christians think hell is the future of unbelievers, why aren't they giving their whole hearted effort to save those people? Good thing the salvation of unbelievers is not up to believers. Besides, if I was a god and I set up salvation as a " Human witnessing to human thingy", I would have chosen the Jehovah's Witnesses , because they hustle door to door; if I wanted to condemn much of humanity, I would have chosen Christianity to do that job.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell for his offspring? In Acts 17:28, " For in him we live, move and have our being; we are also his offspring!" We are the very children of God, his own very generate; ALL of us! Now certain religions have been psychologically seduced into thinking only " They" are the children of God, because selfishness in salvation is easy to shop to greedy people. Believers with " holy greed", or the kind of salvation that only covers their club , with the perceived backing of God himself.

You can't leave any of the children of God out of this! Salvation is not musical chairs; its " guess who is coming to dinner", the one you secretly wanted to exclude!

 

[Mickiel]

What the world needs now, and always has, is sweet Love and Salvation; and the religious are arguing over who receives salvation. Isn't that pitiful, humanity needs salvation, and believers in God are bickering over who gets it!
In Haggai 2:7, " I will shake ALL nations, and the desire of ALL nations SHALL come!"

While the religious bicker over who " They feel should be saved", ALL nations have already been provided for. God would not dare allow believers in him to have anything to do with this!

 

[way 2 go]

Why would God need a hell for his offspring? In Acts 17:28, " For in him we live, move and have our being;we are also his offspring!"

the 1/2 truth followed by ...

We are the very children of God, his own very generate; ALL of us!

the lie


Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

Now certain religions have been psychologically seduced into thinking only " They" are the children of God, because selfishness in salvation is easy to shop to greedy people. Believers with " holy greed", or the kind of salvation that only covers their club , with the perceived backing of God himself.

You can't leave any of the children of God out of this! Salvation is not musical chairs; its " guess who is coming to dinner", the one you secretly wanted to exclude!

You are of your father the devil

Joh_8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[Mickiel]

You are of your father the devil

.

Your petty threats and insults are useless against me Christian, because I know the word of God. You can't turn God against me, and you can't make God abandon me; I understand its your nature to try, but my salvation is safe from you. In 1 Corinth. 15: 28, it is my destiny, and the destiny of all of humanity to have God inside of us! Oh Christianity may call us devils, you may judge me to your hell for " Not being like you", but we are safe from you.

 

[Mickiel]

See I know the truth, so when a Christian calls me the son of the devil; I know the grace of God- Col. 1:6 God's grace has come to me AND" to ALL the world!" Now I am a believer in God and Christ, and I have debated Atheist for years, and absolutely NONE of them have ever called me the son of a devil. Its a shame, but I get more respect from them than I do some believers in God! And I believe, with all my heart, that God will show humanity MUCH more mercy and grace than Christianity would.

Now I am not stupid, I know not all Christians are like this, you know, calling believers in God a son of a devil, but the world has to be shown this, and those Christians doing it need to be exposed. Now I know I cannot stop this behavior, but I can certainly go to my grave speaking against it.

A Christian cannot handicap anyone's salvation.

 

[Lon]

The Unity Church's horrible version of a kinder gentler.....something: "Now children, get along...that's it, no raping ...mass killing of Jews...stabbing someone for their $5.....naughty naughty," <slaps wrists with a disapproving glance and winks>

This version has no need of a Savior and so they flatly reject the Lord of Glory.
This version has no judgment "Depart from Me, I never knew you!"
This version has no infallible Bible "I don't need to follow that being portrayed in the Bible...not my god."
Thus this version calls God (all of God portrayed in any scripture) a liar.
This version has no need of repentance "I'm god's, Hitler was god's, just be who you are and don't worry about a thing, you need do nothing (but be against bible believing Christians who preach Christ and Him crucified).

 

[Prizebeatz1]

The Unity Church's horrible version of a kinder gentler.....something: "Now children, get along...that's it, no raping ...mass killing of Jews...stabbing someone for their $5.....naughty naughty," <slaps wrists with a disapproving glance and winks>

This version has no need of a Savior and so they flatly reject the Lord of Glory.
This version has no judgment "Depart from Me, I never knew you!"
This version has no infallible Bible "I don't need to follow that being portrayed in the Bible...not my god."
Thus this version calls God (all of God portrayed in any scripture) a liar.
This version has no need of repentance "I'm god's, Hitler was god's, just be who you are and don't worry about a thing, you need do nothing (but be against bible believing Christians who preach Christ and Him crucified).

I think you misunderstand because you are identified with the enemy of the personality and you don't even know it. Most people don't know any better. We are not taught how to disidentify from the personality and identify with the eternal and infinite part of us. In fact we have been conditioned by society and programmed since childhood to disregard our own internal divinity in favor of something else. This is a painful loss that hovers in the background of our lives and shows up as hatred and resentment toward ourselves and others. That is why there is so much hostility embedded in the world. Many people have this compulsive need to make themselves feel better for not being able to feel their infinite worth by criticizing others, making them wrong and gaining approval from their peers. These are substitutes for the value which we seek in our lives that is inside us already. There are no replacements for the infinite and eternal part of us however. This is what the story of Jesus points to but we are too stuck in trying to solidify someone else's version of the story and the true meaning is lost in favor of something easy and convenient. The bottom line is that we are one with God. Notice how quickly the personality will bite of the tree of judgement in order to deny its own divinity. Here is lack of self-worth staring us right in the face. The belief is that it can't be true because we are identified with feelings of hatred. We need to see and understand this and feel it in its fullness. Watch again how quickly the personality will deny it. It does not want to face the truth but the truth is what makes us free.

 

[Mickiel]

Here's an interesting article, by a Christian, who ask an interesting question; " If hell is real, then why..."

http://www.biblerealitycheck.com/caseagainsthell.htm

 

[Mickiel]

Now, if eternal hell punishing is not real, than why can't so many different cultures and religions see that? Why would even different eras of God's own church miss it? Well that's what part of the meaning of " Deception" means; those who are being deceived, simply really don't know they are being deceived. Jesus in Matt. 24:24, " For there shall arise false prophets who shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Now Jesus did NOT say it was impossible for his elect to be deceived, he said " IF it were possible", and Rev.2:4, 2:14, 2:20, 3:15-20, definitely reveal churches of God, the elect, being deceived in various areas. This is not my opinion, read it for yourself.

Believers can't see the deception of eternal hell punishing, because they are deceived in that area; they can't see they are deceived! Its not in their conscious mind, something " Other than the truth" has entered; and nothing, " Nothing" can open a deceived mind other than God himself.

Its not the individuals fault; something FAR more powerful than man is at work here.

 

[KingdomRose]

Well at least you recognize the madness of it all. There are many indicators that something is wrong but few do anything about it out of fear. That's the way the adversary prefers it.

Very true. JWs are strong enough to go out into the neighborhoods the world over and tell people the truth about Satan's lies, and people hate us for it. Satan has most of the world under his thumb. And he hates JWs with a purple passion. He makes sure we are the target of people's venom and hate, but we go on giving a witness anyway. (Matthew 24:14)

 

[chrysostom]

Very true. JWs are strong enough to go out into the neighborhoods the world over and tell people the truth about Satan's lies, and people hate us for it. Satan has most of the world under his thumb. And he hates JWs with a purple passion. He makes sure we are the target of people's venom and hate, but we go on giving a witness anyway. (Matthew 24:14)

you are good people
I never pass up an opportunity to talk with you all

 

[KingdomRose]

Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 13:40-42 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels... 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mark 9:42-48 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 14:9-11 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Are you here again slandering our Lord Jesus? You're still clinging to the horrid idea that he teaches people that bad people are FRIED in a fire forever??? How can you say such awful things about sweet Jesus?

All that stuff you posted shows that fire is a METAPHOR for complete destruction. It is not literal! To "torment" the "beast" and the "false prophet" (which are METAPHORS for political entities) means that they are permanently inhibited from doing ANYTHING. The Greek word for "torment" is associated with a word for JAILERS, and what do jailers do? They keep someone locked up so they can't do anything. That is what the scripture in Revelation means.....the "beast" and the "false prophet" and Satan, for that matter, are all kept from doing anything anymore by being destroyed (literally annihilated).

Is that too complicated for you to comprehend?:duh:

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Now, if eternal hell punishing is not real, than why can't so many different cultures and religions see that? Why would even different eras of God's own church miss it? Well that's what part of the meaning of " Deception" means; those who are being deceived, simply really don't know they are being deceived. Jesus in Matt. 24:24, " For there shall arise false prophets who shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Now Jesus did NOT say it was impossible for his elect to be deceived, he said " IF it were possible", and Rev.2:4, 2:14, 2:20, 3:15-20, definitely reveal churches of God, the elect, being deceived in various areas. This is not my opinion, read it for yourself.

Believers can't see the deception of eternal hell punishing, because they are deceived in that area; they can't see they are deceived! Its not in their conscious mind, something " Other than the truth" has entered; and nothing, " Nothing" can open a deceived mind other than God himself.

Its not the individuals fault; something FAR more powerful than man is at work here.

Here's the kicker: the thing that is far more powerful than man is not so powerful once we become aware of the infinite eternal part of us. What I've found is that the collective human conscious from history's civilizations have been passed down to us and there is much turmoil embedded in this. We inherit dysfunction as a kind of original sin and the madness seems normal after some time. Almost no one knows what to do about it because the belief is that who and what we take to be the authority figures are unchallengeable. This attitude is ingrained in us as children and it carries over to our adult lives. It doesn't go away with a hot shower. Once we know the infinite strength, power, peace, benevolence, compassion and fortitude that dwells within us we have access to what we need to break free of the bonds of the personality we've adopted from those around us along with the internalized parental figures in our heads which we mistake for our own voices. The enemy hijacks our will without our awareness because we don't even know it's there. It's similar to using a tool and not knowing that the tool is actually using you instead. The personality is super slick but let's not judge it as bad. Let's have compassion and love this part of us as we watch what it is trying to do. It just needs a little bit of love and understanding. It longs for the feeling of its infinite worth. If we make it our lifestyle to figure out every single way the personality fools us into thinking we are separate from God then it is only a matter of time before we touch the fringe of His robe (the infinite eternal part of us of which Jesus is a symbol) and viola.... We are awakened.

 

[KingdomRose]

Its right there in history for anyone to read. Why do you think some congregations stand and sing when the clergy enters? That came from the ceremonial court of Roman Emperors in the 4th century; brought into the Protestant liturgy by John Calvin. Look at Tithing; the original church did not tithe at all! It did not become a Christian practice until the 8th century. And Clergy salaries was instituted by Constantine in the fourth century.

We have churches that are full of statues, and so called " Pictures of Christ", which normally are of a White man with flowing hair and smooth skin. Have you ever read the history of what a middle aged Arab carpenter would look like? We are so far from the truth, that we are comfortable with the lies!

Did you know that some churches are actually teaching that if you do not tithe that God will curse you? I mean, its ridiculous; I would like to know what the curse is? If I don't give any money to a church, then God is going to curse me. So now I have to give, under a compulsion! A threat! Same mentality is being used with eternal hell punishing; your being threatened! And expected to believe that God is supporting this behavior, because a church is envoking it on you.

Good points, sir. If a person's church teaches him that he must tithe, that person should RUN, DON'T WALK as fast as he can, out of that church! The same with the teaching of hell-fire. All that is an insult to Jesus. None of that stuff is taught in the Bible for Christians to do or believe.