Why would God need a hell?

[serpentdove]

He [Jesus] did not limit his Light to just believers...

:yawn: Strawman Eph 4:14

"Light refused increases darkness." ~ Adrian Rogers 2 Thess 2:9-12, Jn 3:19-21

Illumination is found in truth (Eph. 1:18).

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Mt 13:10–17). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell? Why would a God, need a prison? Because IF hell were true, it would be a prison. A jail.

I wonder if the Christians have picked a warden? Will they issue uniforms? Will there be any windows in hell? Will hell have rooms, or will it be one giant lake of fire? If its a lake, then how deep will the lake be? Will the people be standing up in the lake? Will they be swimming in it? What kind of fire will it be? Will it burn people just a little and never be so it will burn them up? Can the people actually swallow this fire into their lungs?

Will the people have to stand in the same spot all the time throughout eternity? Will they be allowed to move around, you know, take walks in this lake? Will they be allowed to sit down every what, 9 billion years or so? Will we give them water breaks after what, lets say every 7 trillion years?

Oh, and one more question; will there be visitation rights issued?

Allow me just one more speculation; lets say I made it into heaven, you know, I got pass all the Christian requirements, and I am saved! Then, I am given visitation rights to see my son, who did not make it. So I go visit this place. I wonder just what am I going to say to my son?

I can't think of just how I would start? I can't ask " How are you feeling?' That would be stupid. What's it feel like to be burning all the time, no, I can't ask him that. I could not tell him he looks good; after burning for 9 million years, he probally looks horrible!

Maybe I could say that I am working on an appeal? And just get up and leave and tell him I'll let him know within the next 7,777,651 trillion years how its going.

 

[serpentdove]

Why would God need a hell? Why would a God, need a prison? Because IF hell were true, it would be a prison. A jail.

I wonder if the Christians have picked a warden? Will they issue uniforms? Will there be any windows in hell? Will hell have rooms, or will it be one giant lake of fire? If its a lake, then how deep will the lake be? Will the people be standing up in the lake? Will they be swimming in it? What kind of fire will it be? Will it burn people just a little and never be so it will burn them up? Can the people actually swallow this fire into their lungs?

Will the people have to stand in the same spot all the time throughout eternity? Will they be allowed to move around, you know, take walks in this lake? Will they be allowed to sit down every what, 9 billion years or so? Will we give them water breaks after what, lets say every 7 trillion years?

Oh, and one more question; will there be visitation rights issued?

Your home (Mt 13:42). :burnlib: Our home (Ps 16:11). :straight:

 

[serpentdove]

Allow me just one more speculation; lets say I made it into heaven, you know, I got pass all the Christian requirements, and I am saved! Then, I am given visitation rights to see my son, who did not make it. So I go visit this place. I wonder just what am I going to say to my son?

I can't think of just how I would start? I can't ask " How are you feeling?' That would be stupid. What's it feel like to be burning all the time, no, I can't ask him that. I could not tell him he looks good; after burning for 9 million years, he probally looks horrible!

Maybe I could say that I am working on an appeal? And just get up and leave and tell him I'll let him know within the next 7,777,651 trillion years how its going.

“There was a rich man who would dress in purple and fine linen, feasting lavishly every day. But a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, was left at his gate. He longed to be filled with what fell from the rich man’s table, but instead the dogs would come and lick his sores. One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side. ‘Father Abraham!’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame!’

“ ‘Son,’ Abraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.

“ ‘Father,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house— because I have five brothers—to warn them, so they won’t also come to this place of torment.’

“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’

“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’ ” The Holy Bible: Holman Christian standard version. (2009). (Lk 16:19–31). Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers.

 

[way 2 go]

Mickiel and his father (Jn 8:44) say that you will not die (Ge 3:4). No new bags of tricks (Ga 5:9, 2 Co 2:11). :juggle:

Mickiel is full lies and half truths

2Ti_4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

 

[serpentdove]

Mickiel is full lies and half truths

2Ti_4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

Yes (2 Ti 3:13).

 

[Prizebeatz1]

The belief in hell is a symptom of the ego's belief in separation from God. This belief is very deep and most people are not even aware that it exists. There's also an unconscious desire to extract self-esteem through comparison and judgement. It's easy and convenient to put others down in order to lift ourselves up. We cannot give ourselves permission to know and to feel our own infinite worth so we will not allow anyone else to do so either. Deep down we know there is something wrong and that something is missing but we don't know what. We are longing to connect with our infinite worth. We carry unresolved feelings of guilt and shame from the disconnection. Our beliefs do little to help cope with the loss. In fact, they make it worse. The need to be right about what we believe becomes more important than the infinite worth of the soul. Yet what profits a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul in the process?

Most people manage as best they can by disowning, rejecting, and denying the pain they feel from settling for something less than their infinite value. The avoidance maneuvers include grasping, clinging, and an intense attachment to anything, no matter how bad or false it may be. There is tremendous fear underneath this behavior. We unconsciously project this fear in our view of God and in the way we treat others, thus is born the concept of hell. There is a desperate avoidance of pain which lurks beneath the fear. Little do we know that the way to feel our infinite self-worth is by going through the fear and pain and feeling them in their fullness. No one really wants to do that. Yet in the long run, it is actually more painful NOT to do so. We can do it when we understand our true identity is one with the infinite power of God. God gave us the soul for a reason. It has the strength to liberate us from all the pain and fear generated by attachment to the identity of the personality. What's left is all that is real: infinity and eternity and we are one with this. "...with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

 

[Mickiel]

Mickiel is full lies and half truths

2Ti_4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

How can one be full of lies, and then " Half Truths?" I have been called many things, but this is a new one on me. I know I have deceptions yet in me, many many things that I cannot understand; yet I am glad of one thing, I have less deception in me now, than I did last year. And I hope that pace continues.

I am not what I ought to be, not what I am going to be, but I thank God through Jesus Christ, that I am not what I used to be.

I used to be frightened at the salvation of mankind, now I am hopeful of it.

I used to think salvation was only for believers, now I know its for everyone.

I used to think God and satan were in a war for the souls of humanity, and I saw God loosing that war; now I know that was an illusion, nothing can compete with God, he gets what he desires.

I used to think that God was out to get us , that salvation was a survival of the fittest program; now I know that God is out to give us salvation, because he likes giving it.

I used to think that I could never live up to God's standards , that I must bear the cross alone, now I know that Christ is our standard bearer, and we are justified through how he lived and lives for us.

I used to think that eternal punishing hell for humans was an evil thing, now I know it is.

I used to think that the salvation of all of humanity was impossible, now I know it is the actual plan of God. And once I understood that, it totally changed how I viewed God, now I had to increase my views on his Love, his Grace, his Mercy, his Kindness, his Patience, his Joy, his Peace, his Longsuffering and his righteousness. All those had to grow far beyond what I had been taught.

Just to begin getting a better look at him.

 

[Mickiel]

The belief in hell is a symptom of the ego's belief in separation from God. This belief is very deep and most people are not even aware that it exists. There's also an unconscious desire to extract self-esteem through comparison and judgement. It's easy and convenient to put others down in order to lift ourselves up. We cannot give ourselves permission to know and to feel our own infinite self-worth so we will not allow anyone else to do so either. Deep down we know there is something wrong and that something is missing but we don't know what. We are longing to connect with our infinite worth. We carry unresolved feelings of guilt and shame from the disconnection. Our beliefs do little to help cope with the loss. In fact, they make it worse. The need to be right about what we believe becomes more important than the infinite self-worth of the soul. Yet what profits a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul in the process?

Most people manage as best they can by disowning, rejecting, and denying any pain they feel from settling for something less than their infinite value. The avoidance maneuvers include grasping, clinging, and an intense attachment to anything, no matter how bad or false it may be. There is tremendous fear underneath this behavior. We unconsciously project this fear in our view of God and in the way we treat others, thus is born the concept of hell. There us a desperate avoidance of pain which lurks beneath the fear. Little do we know that the way to feel our infinite self-worth is by going through the fear and pain and feeling them in their fullness. No one really wants to do that. Yet in the long run, it is actually more painful NOT to do so. We can do it when we understand our true identity is one with the infinite power of God. God gave us the soul for a reason. It has the strength to liberate us from all the pain and fear generated by attachment to identity of the personality. What's left is all that is real: infinity and eternity and we are one with this. "...with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)

A beautiful post Prize, I know we don't agree on everything, but I can get to some of the things you say. As you pour your heart out it is very touching and real. Your words are often a diamond in this dessert of posting where I read so much doom and misery.

A breath of fresh air.

Peace.

 

[Mickiel]

Before I go off to bed, let me open up Isaiah 66:9 a bit more;, " Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? Says the Lord. Shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?" Here God is discussing giving birth to his children. Not just physical humanity, but humanity being born again in the spirit! God is teaching and asking, why should I cause the physical birth of billions of humans, only to shut them off from being born again in my spirit world? Why would he mass produce so many of us, to then allow so many ways that we could be cut off from being with him in his Kingdom?

And this horrible hell doctrine is a bitter damaging false picture of God's intentions for us all. It teaches that God has planned on having mass abortions, actually planned on loosing so many of his children. And believers in God have put this on God's resume. Like the brother of the prodical son, they are acting as if they will not be happy that the Father forgives and welcomes home the wayward son.

If you look at just how many humans God has created , it puts thing in a realistic view. Its a hard number to calculate, one estimate I read was 102,602,707,791, literally trillions of us! It obvious God wanted a very BIG family! And he did not do this , only that most of us be sectioned off into some darkness forever.

Don't you believe that about God. He would do no such thing; God is a master provider ; he knew before he created us, that he wanted all of us to be alive with him in his eternity! And God has enough sense, enough power, and enough love to accomidate us all. But let me also tell you WHY God created us all in the first place! First he gave birth to Christ, the first born of us all, and the scriptures tell us this. THAT is WHY God created us; because Jesus turned out SO GOOD, it made the Father desire more children; and that is why I think we got here in the first place.

 

[Timotheos]

Souls are immortal (Matt. 10:28).

"[W]hich is able to destroy both soul and body in hell—A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Lu 12:4), Jesus calls His disciples “My friends,” as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them." Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 37). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Matthew 10:28 does not say that souls are immortal. Re-read Matthew 10:28. Can't you see that it says "fear the one who is able to destroy both the soul and the body"? If souls can't be destroyed, then Jesus was lying when He said that they could be destroyed. You are wrong. Matthew 10:28 is decisive proof that the bodies and souls of the unrepentant will be destroyed and it is decisive proof that the souls of the unrepentant will not be preserved forever in hell being tortured alive in fire. You are wrong, and the person you quoted is wrong. Jesus is right, and I agree with Him. I strongly suggest that you do the same.

 

[Timotheos]

Is 6:10, Mt 13:16

Souls are immortal (Matt. 10:28).

"...[T]he apostles need not fear the religious leaders who could destroy only the physical body (Matt. 10:28). The leaders’ true motives will be revealed in the judgment (v. 26). Obedience to God, who ultimately is in charge of physical as well as spiritual life, is far more crucial. The message they had received from the Lord privately (in the dark … whispered), they were to proclaim publicly without fear (speak in the daylight … proclaim from the [flat] housetops), for their Father was truly concerned for them and aware of their circumstances." Barbieri, L. A., Jr. (1985). Matthew. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, pp. 42–43). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

See, you are still wrong.
Isaiah 6:10 does not say that souls are immortal.
Matthew 13:16 does not say that souls are immortal.
Matthew 10:28 does not say that souls are immortal.
Even your quyote of Barnieri does not say that souls are immortal.

Why don't you give up?

 

[Timotheos]

:yawn: Ps 69:23

Souls are immortal (Matt. 10:28).

"Mt 10:27, 28 Fear Him refers not to Satan but to God. Destroy does not indicate annihilation but ruination. The same verb is used in 9:17 of wineskins being ruined." Radmacher, E. D., Allen, R. B., & House, H. W. (1999). Nelson’s new illustrated Bible commentary (Mt 10:27–28). Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.

Matthew 10:28 does not say that souls are immortal. It says the souls of the unrepentant will be destroyed.

Serpentdove, you are repeating the lie of the Serpent in the garden who said "You will not surely die". Genesis 3:4

(Notice what I did there? If you look up Genesis 3:4 in the ESV you can actually see the words "you will not surely die" spoken by the serpent. See how good that works? Why don't you try something like that? Every time I look at the verse you quote, it doesn't say anything like what you claim it says. If you want to make the claim that souls are immortal, try to find a verse from the Bible that actually says "souls are immortal". That would be more convincing than taking a verse which says souls can be destroyed and claiming that it says that souls can't be destroyed.)

 

[Mickiel]

Who would think that the gospel would deteriate so much , that the wonderful message of life, would be perverted into some dark warning of a hell?

 

[everready]

Who would think that the gospel would deteriate so much , that the wonderful message of life, would be perverted into some dark warning of a hell?

What would you call this place of everlasting fire that Jesus describes?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


everready

 

[everready]

Matthew 10:28 does not say that souls are immortal. It says the souls of the unrepentant will be destroyed.

Serpentdove, you are repeating the lie of the Serpent in the garden who said "You will not surely die". Genesis 3:4

(Notice what I did there? If you look up Genesis 3:4 in the ESV you can actually see the words "you will not surely die" spoken by the serpent. See how good that works? Why don't you try something like that? Every time I look at the verse you quote, it doesn't say anything like what you claim it says. If you want to make the claim that souls are immortal, try to find a verse from the Bible that actually says "souls are immortal". That would be more convincing than taking a verse which says souls can be destroyed and claiming that it says that souls can't be destroyed.)

I'll ask you the same, what would you call this place of everlasting fire?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


everready

 

[Mickiel]

What would you call this place of everlasting fire that Jesus describes?

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


everready

I would call it a place prepared for the devil and his angels. A place designed for demons. A place intended for satan. A place that was created specifically for the devil and his angels.

 

[Mickiel]

Christians love to claim that God is not going to force humanity to him, which is unbiblical - he will use force, but they keep saying that so they can pimp their false doctrine of free will. I think its weird, if threatening people with eternal punishing if they don't believe is not a type of force, then I don't know what is? Its arcane manipulation at its best! Its trying to twist the will of man by using fear of a horrible force!

 

[Mickiel]

As I examine all the traps of satan and evil that have been set against humanity, the worse of them all is the Christian hell. It cripples humans far more than any other vice of satan; it imprisons the total consciousness. And it is the best "Masked" trick of satan, because it masquerades behind religion. Its being pimped that God is behind it, so like a pied piper, satan is leading the consciousness of the believer into a vicious trap. And we need complete freedom from that. In John 8:32, " You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free!"

Eternal hell torture is a trap, it binds the mind of the believer and it distorts the salvation of God.

 

[serpentdove]

[Men are born spiritually dead (Ps 51:5, Rom. 5:12, 16). They must be born again (Jn 3:7). Souls are immortal (Matt. 10:28).] See, you are still wrong.

:yawn: Let the reader decide (Eph 4:14). each: