Why would God need a hell?

[Apple7]

Regarding Holy Quran, Al-Fatihah 1.2 -

I see no problem here apart from what you're reading into the text, by your own theological bias and antagonism towards Islam. Out of 18 translations given on this site here, there is only that renders a translation similar to yours which includes in parenthesis about 'mankind, 'jinn' and all that exists. - this is merely a paraphrased descriptive ADDED to the verse.


Note that this site says of this particular source -

** - Read with caution - These Translations, specially those which are marked here with **, are considered either incorrect, far-fetched, non-conforming or misleading. For all translations, care must be exercised for certain verses or an alternate translation should be considered.

All other standard translations render Allah as the Lord (or Sustainer/Provider) of worlds, the universe, all being, all creation, etc. - there is no specific indication of the word 'jinn' in this passage, other than the 'assumption' that Allah ('God') would naturally as Lord of all, be the Lord of all beings,...this includes jinn, angels, demons, elves, fairies, pixies, gnomes, elementals, - ALL BEINGS. (paraphrasing here for emphasis). 'God' is the original Creator and Lord of all that exists. Clear?

There is absolutely NOTHING in this passage that demeans, devalues or discounts 'Allah' or associates 'Allah' as 'Satan',.....nothing but what you're reading into the passage which is not the accurate, traditional or orthodox reading of it.

Concerning 'Alamin' (plural of alam) - this refers to not only animate beings but all creation, all animate and inanimate, so naturally includes man, angels, jinn, heavenly bodies, sun, moon, stars, etc.

See commentary here

No problems here. :idunno:

Thanks for confirming my rendering as legit.

Further, the classic Arabic Lexicons already support it, completely independent of any other modern rendering that you tards keep looking for...

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Psalm 67 is short enough in length to quote it in its entirety. Little wonder that you didn't want to do this...

To the chief musician, for stringed instruments. A Psalm. A song. May God be merciful to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us. Selah. That Your way may be known on earth, Your salvation among all nations. Let the peoples thank You, O God; let all the peoples thank You. Oh let the peoples be glad and sing for joy; for You shall judge the peoples uprightly and govern the peoples on earth. Selah. Let the peoples give thanks to You, O God; let all the peoples give thanks to You. The earth has given its increase; God, our own God, shall bless us. God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear Him. (Psalm 67.1 – 7)



Oooops...

Looks like you forgot to mention a Judgment...of which, would hardly be necessary if everyone was 'saved' as you would like it to be...:cigar:

Judgement comes from people like you who have never experienced God and therefore do not know any better. It's pretty obvious dude. Go ahead on and continue in your spiritual deadness with the father of lies gargling your own vomit and confusing that with salvation.

 

[Apple7]

Judgement comes from people like you who have never experienced God and therefore do not know any better. It's pretty obvious dude. Go ahead on and continue in your spiritual deadness with the father of lies gargling your own vomit.

I just showed you in Psalm 67 that Judgment comes from God.

If you could demonstrate whatever point you are trying to make, with scripture, then you might have something....but, you would rather avoid scripture because any discussion of it is most certainly is going to expose your ignorance of it...

 

[patrick jane]

I just showed you in Psalm 67 that Judgment comes from God.

If you could demonstrate whatever point you are trying to make, with scripture, then you might have something....but, you would rather avoid scripture because any discussion of it is most certainly is going to expose your ignorance of it...

It is decidedly so

 

[Mickiel]

Here's an interest piece on no need for hell, its kind of long too;

http://www.thehypertexts.com/no hell in the bible.htm

 

[patrick jane]

Judgement comes from people like you who have never experienced God and therefore do not know any better. It's pretty obvious dude. Go ahead on and continue in your spiritual deadness with the father of lies gargling your own vomit and confusing that with salvation.

good one - here's one - rinse your teeth with your own vomit :rotfl:

 

[Mickiel]

Lets try and keep this discussion civil please.

 

[KingdomRose]

Uh, yes. He does.

Sad but true.

 

[KingdomRose]

Jesus did NOT speak about a literal fiery place where people are consciously roasted forever. That is ridiculous. His story about "The Rich Man and Lazarus" was a METAPHORICAL PARABLE, with not a literal thing in it. Hell-fire does not exist. Only in the minds of ogres and sadists.

Wherever "fire" is mentioned in Jesus' teachings, it usually means TOTAL DESTRUCTION. That is what "Gehenna" means, and he used that word several times in Matthew: chapter 5:22,29,30; chapter 10:28; chapter 18:9; chapter 23:15,33. Most of us know what Gehenna was in his day....a garbage dump outside the city. Trash and even criminals were thrown there. What happened to this stuff? It all burned up INTO NOTHING. The focus isn't on the fire in the dump, but what happened to the trash and bodies thrown there---NON-EXISTENCE.

A person has to do some research to see just which words are being translated into "hell." Sometimes it's "Hades," sometimes it's "Gehenna." Once even it's "Tartarus." All these words have different meanings, yet the King James renders them ALL as "hell."

There is no place like what Dante imagined in his popular Inferno. No fire where people must stay and suffer forever. What would be the point of roasting someone forever? There is no hope of an end to it. It certainly isn't for discipline so the person will change. There is no point, except for the delight of sick people.

The Greek word "Hades" has always been known to mean "the grave." Translators screwed people's understanding up when they jumbled all the words together which mean different things. When Jesus spoke of "the fire prepared for the devil & his angels," that was associated with "Hades" because "Gehenna" had been translated as "Hell" along with "Hades." Gehenna, the fire prepared..., and the lake of fire all mean ANNIHILATION. But the church focused on the "fire" instead of the end results of the fire. They told people that the fire was literal. It is not.

Some versions today use the original words, Hades & Gehenna. It would be a good thing to find these versions and have them in our personal libraries.

I've read many of the posts up to now, and it seems like, once again, I've been ignored. I know some of you REJECT what I say and just ignore it, but it would be a big help and a KINDNESS if you would say exactly why you disagree with my particular post.

Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus are all rendered as "Hell" in the KJV, and that is bad translating because all three mean something different than the others!

Someone cited Acts 2:27 & 31 to prove "hell" I guess, but the word there is "HADES," which means THE GRAVE. Jesus never went to a fiery place of torture, for any reason. He was in "Hades" for three days---his grave.

 

[commonsense]

God doesn't really need a hell, why would he? His zealots on the other hand relay on hell to bully free thinkers....get on board or Go To Hell!!!

 

[Mickiel]

I've read many of the posts up to now, and it seems like, once again, I've been ignored. I know some of you REJECT what I say and just ignore it, but it would be a big help and a KINDNESS if you would say exactly why you disagree with my particular post.

Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus are all rendered as "Hell" in the KJV, and that is bad translating because all three mean something different than the others!

Someone cited Acts 2:27 & 31 to prove "hell" I guess, but the word there is "HADES," which means THE GRAVE. Jesus never went to a fiery place of torture, for any reason. He was in "Hades" for three days---his grave.

Truth is often ignored, or just not understood; many here are stuck on hell; addicted to it, and they need it for their religion to remain valid. Other wise, they would have to admit one of their major doctrines is wrong, and they have way too much pride to do that.

 

[commonsense]

we need hell for evil

How so Patrick Jane? Please provide proof we need hell for evil....Thought not!!!!

 

[Mickiel]

How so Patrick Jane? Please provide proof we need hell for evil....Thought not!!!!

I would like to see that proof myself.

I have said before, that God has lived eternally before he created the earth, and he never before needed a hell, why would he need one now? Its Christianity that needs hell, because it props up their doctrines and much of their belief system.

And satan needs hell because it has helped him deceive the whole world; Rev. 12:9 " And the Great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and satan, which deceiveth the Whole World!" The perfect way for satan to deceive a whole world, is to use religion, because so many believe in and follow religions. In that manner he can broadcast false messages across this planet, using unsuspecting believers.

In fact, in Revelation the 6th chapter, the first seal that Christ opens is false religion, 6:2 satan is given a crown over earth and he sets out to conquer. He is the god of this earth, meaning deceived humans are really influenced by him, but they think its coming from God. satan has false doctrines all in the churches, like Trojan horses, they are deceiving believers by the millions.

And this could NOT happen if it was against God's will; God knows; you best believe he knows about this great seduction of the believers mind. Nothing as powerful as this deception could occur without God allowing it. So even deception has a role in how God wanted to bring all this to a head.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You are being weird. I literally asked "Am I?" It 'looks' like I'm not the one to tell you these things. Look at another, in thread, not this Calvinist, saying the exact same things. I understand prejudism and bias, try to get beyond that or blot 'Calvinism' from my name at the moment or simply move on. Like I said, you pretty much cut off the conversation but I found this rather a moment of unfounded "youthful" angst.

Well if I am it seems to be the place for it...lain:

Look Lon, I've heard people spout off all kinds of things about their notions of "hell", sometimes within the same church and contradictory at that. I've heard folk say they'd rejoice in their own children being burned if it was God's will or decree so you'll have to excuse me if I want no part of such a sickening mindset that results from such an insidious belief system that 'hell' often brings about. If you want to continue with 'youthful angst' then you carry on, but it's really rather lame and you should cut that out.

 

[Apple7]

I would like to see that proof myself.

I have said before, that God has lived eternally before he created the earth, and he never before needed a hell, why would he need one now? Its Christianity that needs hell, because it props up their doctrines and much of their belief system.

And satan needs hell because it has helped him deceive the whole world; Rev. 12:9 " And the Great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and satan, which deceiveth the Whole World!" The perfect way for satan to deceive a whole world, is to use religion, because so many believe in and follow religions. In that manner he can broadcast false messages across this planet, using unsuspecting believers.

In fact, in Revelation the 6th chapter, the first seal that Christ opens is false religion, 6:2 satan is given a crown over earth and he sets out to conquer. He is the god of this earth, meaning deceived humans are really influenced by him, but they think its coming from God. satan has false doctrines all in the churches, like Trojan horses, they are deceiving believers by the millions.

And this could NOT happen if it was against God's will; God knows; you best believe he knows about this great seduction of the believers mind. Nothing as powerful as this deception could occur without God allowing it. So even deception has a role in how God wanted to bring all this to a head.

Satan and his minions were the first creatures to sin, and they were discarded from Heaven.

Sin cannot reside in the presence of God.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Satan and his minions were the first creatures to sin, and they were discarded from Heaven.

Sin cannot reside in the presence of God.

You don't see anything a tad symbolic about that? What tempted anyone to sin in Heaven exactly? In fact, what tempted 'Satan'?

 

[Mickiel]

You don't see anything a tad symbolic about that? What tempted anyone to sin in Heaven exactly? In fact, what tempted 'Satan'?

In my view, satan was never tempted, he was created evil from his conception and was never a citizen of heaven. He was created to be just what he is, and to do just what he does. Isaiah 54:16 , God had him created to be a destroyer.

 

[commonsense]

Satan and his minions were the first creatures to sin, and they were discarded from Heaven.

Sin cannot reside in the presence of God.

Get a grip my friend.... there's no Satan, no heaven , no hell, You've been deceived. Now's your chance to relax...

 

[Arthur Brain]

In my view, satan was never tempted, he was created evil from his conception and was never a citizen of heaven. He was created to be just what he is, and to do just what he does. Isaiah 54:16 , God had him created to be a destroyer.

Why? Don't get that at all...

 

[Mickiel]

Why? Don't get that at all...

Well I can give you my understanding of it all. I believe in God, that he created all things that we know of in this physical universe, I do not believe it created itself. But " Before" God had all this created, there was what was there before in his spirit world; we don't know a lot about this spirit world. But I believe that God was alive first and at some point he gave birth to Christ ; he somehow brought Christ out of himself. And Jesus became the first born of God. I think then they created the world of angels and other spirit beings, perhaps millions of them, I don't know.

I think God was so pleased with how Jesus turned out, that made him want more children, and that desire was the beginning of them planning and creating humanity. For several reasons God wanted humanity to first be in the flesh, But God obviously wanted humans to eventually become spirit beings , but only after we experienced things that God , in his wisdom, wanted us to live through. I think sin and evil are two of those things. God had satan created to represent evil, to be the father of sin.

Like a cook preparing a dish, God wanted humanity prepared for his Kingdom, before we actually got there. Like a great potter molding clay, God is using satan, sin and evil, in our preparation for our eternal future; he wants us all to " Know good and evil." This is why satan was created, because evil had never existed before, so it is soley for our experience. For some reason I do not understand completely, it must be an experience God feels that we need.