Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?

[Jerry Shugart]

I say let the Twelve and the Little Flock receive the atonement when the Lord returns, let them be Kings and Priests, let them inherit the City, let them judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

You just ignore the evidence FROM THE BIBLE which I gave you that prove that Peter had already received the blessings of the atonement but you refuse to believe what is said in the Bible.

According to your uninformed ideas we are supposed to believe that Peter did not think that he or those to whom he wrote his epistles had received the blessings of the atonement and wouldn't receive it until the Lord Jesus' second coming even though he wrote the following?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.18-19).​

Certainly those who had received Peter's first epistle had received the blessings which flow from the atonement because Peter told them that they were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Peter also told them this:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

Why in the world would Peter be telling the Jews that they have already received the blessings which flow from the atonement if you are right and they will not receive the atonement until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth?

Of course you will not answer!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Of course you will not answer!

Why will you have us believe that Peter received the atonement but those he preached to in Acts 3 wouldn't until the Second Coming?

Was he lying to them? Misleading them?

Your "corporate Israel" answer is a bit of a copout. You will tell us that those who believed in Acts 3 immediately received the atonement, even though Peter said it was future for them.

Why?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why will you have us believe that Peter received the atonement but those he preached to in Acts 3 wouldn't until the Second Coming?

Because Peter is describing how "individual" Jews received the blessings of the atonement. And of course you just ignored those verses which I quoted which prove that they had indeed received the blessings which flow from the atonement.

Was Peter lying to them?

Your "corporate Israel" answer is a bit of a copout. You will tell us that those who believed in Acts 3 immediately received the atonement, even though Peter said it was future for them.

You obviously think that these words of Peter were NOT in regard yo corporate Israel:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

If we are to believe that these words are addressed to "individual" Jews then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that Peter was telling individual Jews that each time one of the Jews repented the Lord Jesus would be sent back!

Obviously, Peter's words were addressed to corporate Israel.

Now that I have answered you please address the verses which I quoted on post #161.

 

[heir]

I say let the Twelve and the Little Flock receive the atonement when the Lord returns, let them be Kings and Priests, let them inherit the City, let them judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

I say let the Body of Christ, having already received the atonement, seated already in Christ in God, inherit the heavens forever, judge angels, and be trophies of God's grace for the ages to come.

I say let the old testament saint be resurrected at the Second Coming and go into the promised land, let them be the head of the nations, let all nations flow to them. Let them administer God's Law to the nations in it's perfection for 1000 years.

As it is written, just let it be so...

Amen!

 

[heir]

According to your uninformed ideas we are supposed to believe that...

Do you say this to everyone?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you say this to everyone?

No, only to those who are uninformed.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Do you say this to everyone?

"Uninformed" means you have not studied The Original MAD Cathecism co-authored by Andersen and O'Hair.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If we are to believe that these words are addressed to "individual" Jews then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that Peter was telling individual Jews that each time one of the Jews repented the Lord Jesus would be sent back!

YOU believe that individual Jews heard the message, and received the atonement immediately, despite what Peter said.

That is the issue.

 

[Danoh]

"Uninformed" means you have not studied The Original MAD Cathecism co-authored by Andersen and O'Hair.

Andersen and O'Hair - two men greatly used of God, the shoulders of those who had gone before them; their launching pad.

Shoulders it had been Anderson's and O'Hair's great privilege to stand on, look out over the horizon, and from which they had been privileged to go a bit further forward in the understanding of things.

Two great men who died still seeking to understand just a bit more.

As all our best have...

Or as one of their fellow laborers put it, in one of his own writings - "Things That Differ," p. 10, C. R. Stam:

We gratefully acknowledge the help of others in the preparation of this volume. Of these, three have submitted doctrinal criticisms: Pastor Charles F. Baker of Milwaukee and Pastor Donald Elifson of Chicago; both well qualified to deal with dispensational matters, and Pastor J. C. O'Hair of Chicago, who has probably contributed more to the recovery of dispensational truth than any man living today. We do not, of course, imply that these brethren, necessarily endorse every detail of this volume as it now appears, but their criticisms have been prayerfully considered and many of their suggestions have been adopted.

Though we have sought to make this book as comprehensive as possible, it is not presumed to be exhaustive for, as we say, the field of dispensational study is as great as the Bible itself. Should there still be some time remaining before the Lord returns to catch His own away, the Spirit will enlighten the hearts and minds of others to see what we have missed and other writers will doubtless improve upon what has here been written.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

YOU believe that individual Jews heard the message, and received the atonement immediately, despite what Peter said.

I answered you but you just ignored these verses which prove that the Jews who believed had already received the blessings which flow from the atonement:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.18-19).​

According to you the Jews to whom Peter addressed his fist epistle had not received the atonement even though he tells them that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ.

You must think that Peter was in error for telling them that. Tood bad that you were not around in the first century so that you could have corrected Him. Besides, the following words of Peter also demonstrate that the same Jews had received the benefits of the atonement:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

Why do you just run and hide from those two verses which I quoted?

Since you are so sure that the Jews will not receive the atonement until the Lord Jesus returns then you must have a way to reconcile your idea with what Peter told them.

How do you reconcile those two things?

 

[DAN P]

Hi , and just where did the 12 apostles ever teach about the Body of Christ , so give me that verse ??

Why is 1 John 1:9 part mof the Body of Christ and not even mentioned there at all ??

1 John 1:9 is CONTROLLED by the Subjective Mood , which means , IT is used to express things that are POSSIBILITIES , things which could happen and of their 4 verbs in verse 9 , 3 all in the Subjective Mood !!

This book is written to Israel , just as the phrase " born again " speaks to Israel !!

Col 2:13 says that we have been " FORGIVEN YOU ALL TREPASSES ," as well as Eph 1:7 , Col 1:14 , Col 2:13 and Tit 2:14 and I have the PROOF !!

DAN P

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I say let the Twelve and the Little Flock receive the atonement when the Lord returns, let them be Kings and Priests, let them inherit the City, let them judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

I say let the Body of Christ, having already received the atonement, seated already in Christ in God, inherit the heavens forever, judge angels, and be trophies of God's grace for the ages to come.

I say let the old testament saint be resurrected at the Second Coming and go into the promised land, let them be the head of the nations, let all nations flow to them. Let them administer God's Law to the nations in it's perfection for 1000 years.

As it is written, just let it be so...

Good post

 

[Danoh]

No, only to those who are uninformed.

...that to engage you is to engage one delusional individual.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I answered you but you just ignored these verses which prove that the Jews who believed had already received the blessings which flow from the atonement:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.18-19).​

According to you the Jews to whom Peter addressed his fist epistle had not received the atonement even though he tells them that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ.

You must think that Peter was in error for telling them that. Tood bad that you were not around in the first century so that you could have corrected Him. Besides, the following words of Peter also demonstrate that the same Jews had received the benefits of the atonement:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

Why do you just run and hide from those two verses which I quoted?

Since you are so sure that the Jews will not receive the atonement until the Lord Jesus returns then you must have a way to reconcile your idea with what Peter told them.

How do you reconcile those two things?

By understanding Leviticus.

Redemption was the Passover, a spring feast.

Yes, Christ died for their sins, but the atonement was a fall feast.
One goat was a sin sacrifice, the other goat took their sins away.

The Lord explained the OT to Peter, and Peter preached correctly to those in Acts 3. He did not lie to them.

 

[Bright Raven]

I was just thinking. Why would they? Their emphasis is on Romans through Philemon

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I was just thinking. Why would they? Their emphasis is on Romans through Philemon

Hey BR,

I did a thread on John 3:16 long ago, it was purged by TOL.

My point was "gave his only begotten Son" refers back to "unto US a son is given". It is Gentile salvation in the kingdom, and through Israel's rise, not their fall.

Jerry should know this.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

By understanding Leviticus.

Redemption was the Passover, a spring feast.

Yes, Christ died for their sins, but the atonement was a fall feast.
One goat was a sin sacrifice, the other goat took their sins away.

The Lord explained the OT to Peter, and Peter preached correctly to those in Acts 3. He did not lie to them.

So these words are not speaking of any blessings which the Jewish believers received from the atonement?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.18-19).​

Are you so confused that you think that the word "blood" in this verse is referring to the "blood" of a goat on the day of atonement?

Do you not know that being redeemed by the blood of Christ is speaking of one of the blessings which come to believers when they receive the atonement?

And do you think that this verse is speaking of the sins of the Jews which were placed on the scape goat on the day of atonement?:

"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth...Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:22,24).​

All you prove is that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to cling to the nonsense which is taught with the Neo-MAD camp.

The Lord explained the OT to Peter, and Peter preached correctly to those in Acts 3. He did not lie to them.

According to you Peter's words here were not addressed to "corporate" Israel but instead "individual" Jews:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you"​

(Acts 3:19-20).​

If you are right then we must believe that Peter was telling individual Jews that when one of them repented then the Lord Jesus would be sent back. Then when another Jew repented then once again the Lord Jesus would be sent back to them.

That makes no sense but obviously you do not care.

 

[Bright Raven]

Hey BR,

I did a thread on John 3:16 long ago, it was purged by TOL.

My point was "gave his only begotten Son" refers back to "unto US a son is given". It is Gentile salvation in the kingdom, and through Israel's rise, not their fall.

Jerry should know this.

Yeah he should.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

So these words are not speaking of any blessings which the Jewish believers received from the atonement?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.18-19).​

Are you so confused that you think that the word "blood" in this verse is referring to the "blood" of a goat on the day of atonement?

Do you not know that being redeemed by the blood of Christ is speaking of one of the blessings which come to believers when they receive the atonement?

And do you think that this verse is speaking of the sins of the Jews which were placed on the scape goat on the day of atonement?:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

All you prove is that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to cling to the nonsense which is taught with the Neo-MAD camp.

The little flock was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and their sins will be blotted out on the day of atonement.

Why do you have the day of atonement preceding Pentecost , Jerry?

That's stupid.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry should know this.

Do you believe what is written in "bold" here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

This says that "whosoever" believes is saved.

According to your ideas the Jews who lived under the law could believe and not yet be saved. According to you if they believed but didn't do works then they would not be saved.

Your idea is contradicted by what is said here in "bold":

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

So I cannot see how your ideas can be reconciled by what is said at John 3:16.