Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?

[Tambora]

I've read before that he who has the Son has eternal life.
And if they did not continually abide in the Son?

The salvation of this church is the 2nd coming. They were to, by faith, abide in the Son and obey looking forward
to the promised time when they would be saved by Grace. 1 Peter 1 agrees if we let it say what it says.

:thumb:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Salvation:

1. Blotting out of sins
2. Resurrection


In the Body of Christ we have both of these now. We were crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, forgiven, and risen with Christ. We are saved now. It cannot be lost.


The little flock, that church of Acts 2, had remission of sins. They looked to the 2nd coming for the blotting out of sins and being raised. This is when they are saved. They could not lose salvation, as they were still looking ahead to it. They could lose their position and miss out on being saved at the end.


If everyone understood this, TOL would be a much happier place. Mix it all together and you have arguments, backbiting, accusations, name calling.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The little flock, that church of Acts 2, had remission of sins. They looked to the 2nd coming for the blotting out of sins and being raised. This is when they are saved. They could not lose salvation, as they were still looking ahead to it. They could lose their position and miss out on being saved at the end.

So even though the Lord Jesus told them this they were not saved when they believed?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Of course the Jewish believers who lived under the law were saved since they received eternal life upon belief. And those who believed will never perish, meaning that they possessed eternal security:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the Jews who lived under the law would not be saved until sometime in the future. Here the Lord Jesus told a woman that she was already saved:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Peter also knew that he was already saved and that his salvation was on the principle of "grace":

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

I've read before that he who has the Son has eternal life.
And if they did not continually abide in the Son?

Here is what the Lord Jesus Himself said about those to whom He had given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

So even though the Lord Jesus told them this they were not saved when they believed?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Of course the Jewish believers who lived under the law were saved since they received eternal life upon belief. And those who believed will never perish, meaning that they possessed eternal security:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

It is ridiculous to argue that the Jews who lived under the law would not be saved until sometime in the future. Here the Lord Jesus told a woman that she was already saved:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

Peter also knew that he was already saved and that his salvation was on the principle of "grace":

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:11).​

Those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Here is what the Lord Jesus Himself said about those to whom He had given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

Eternal life, not perish, not judged. All looking to salvation at the second coming and resurrection.

I believe deep down you know it is true.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Eternal life, not perish, not judged. All looking to salvation at the second coming and resurrection..

No, the words of the Lord Jesus here are not referring to eternal life that the Jews who lived in under the law will receive in the future:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life.

In John's first epistle we see that those he addressed already had received eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

I believe deep down you know it is true.

Unlike you, I am not able to trick my mind into believing that the eternal life spoken of in these verses which I quoted will not be received until the Lord Jesus returns to the earth and the resurrection.

I think that you need to study what the "present" tense means.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No, the words of the Lord Jesus here are not referring to eternal life that the Jews who lived in under the law will receive in the future:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I humbly disagree,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I humbly disagree,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If you think that this verse is saying that "works" were required for salvation then you obviously do not believe that the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the Lord named just "one" thing that these Jews had to do to be saved but according to you it took "two" things--believing and doing works.

Why should anyone believe you when you say that "two" things were required even though the Savior Himself just named "one" thing?

I believe Him and not you.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If you think that this verse is saying that "works" were required for salvation then you obviously do not believe that the Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

Here the Lord named just "one" thing that these Jews had to do to be saved but according to you it took "two" things--believing and doing works.

Why should anyone believe you when you say that "two" things were required even though the Savior Himself just named "one" thing?

I believe Him and not you.

Yes, he who had the Son had eternal life.
They had to continue to abide in Him.

The LORD said many things on the topic, as you know.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I believe Him and not you.

Likewise, Jerry.


Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I do not see any wiggle room here...


1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


100% obedience


How did they know they were abiding in the Son?


1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.




And, even more


1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

 

[Danoh]

I found this long lost episode of the Flintstones.

The Great Gazoo, accidently transports Fred and Barney to the wrong side of the world.

They're walking up this dirt red road, when they overhear a conversation on the other side of a huge boulder.

They trot on over and realize they are not the only two people Gazoo, has misfired as to this wrong part of the world predicament he's left them in.

Peering over that boulder, they see two weird looking bearded men. One of them holding what looks like some kind of a long wooden pole.

"Eh hooh, who, who, who - they must have Saber toothe tigers over here too," says Barney.

"Keep it down, Barn," says Fred, "let's see what they're talking about..."

The one man says to the one holding the long pole "....And while I was over there, Mo, there was this one nut in the future; he gets on this thing called an internet, and asserts that we did not have to keep the Law; something about a Mystery - and that all we had to do was believe...."

"And I was thinking, Mo, if its ok with you, um, while I was over there, I kind of got used to pork. These things called Rib Tips, with extra Mambo Sauce - Yum! I mean, you know, you also wrote Genesis 11; right?"

Just then Gazoo finally shows up. "My, my," he says to Fred and Barney, "sorry I'm late; what have you two been up to..."

"Lol," replies Fred, "we're watching some guy pound another guy with a long stick - now get us out of here!"

"Why of course," replies Gazoo "that's not for you."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Likewise, Jerry.

You do not believe what He said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

According to the Lord Jesus the Jews who lived under the law received eternal life when they believed.

According to you the Jews who lived under the law did not receive eternal life when they believed. Instead, according to you they did not receive it until they believed and did works.

If you cannot see the difference between what He said and what you say then you have lost touch with reality.

Your idea is a complete denial of the Lord Jesus' words at John 5:24.

Yes, he who had the Son had eternal life.
They had to continue to abide in Him.

They had to continue to abide in Him in order to hold on to eternal life?

That is wrong because this is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

And, even more

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

There is not one word here that speaks of salvation. Instead, it is speaking of one's continual "walk" with the Lord.

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Yes, and it is obvious that they have already received that promise:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

You expect me to answer all your verses but at the same time you just ignore mine. What do you say about these facts?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

Since the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).

According to you the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from "works" even though Paul made it plain that those who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith.

And what about these words?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

According to these words any person who believed were saved. But you say that the Jews who lived under the law and belived were not saved. You say that they were not saved until they believed and did works.

So even though a Jew believed, according to you, he would never be saved if he didn't do the works. But that idea directly contradicts what is said here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I'm convinced that if the Lord Jesus himself came down and agreed with me, Jerry would have no small dispute with him.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:thumb:

Yes, sister. The twelve and their followers had no reason to expect the Atonement and their salvation until the Second Coming. It was in full accord with prophecy.

Jerry knows this is true, on some level, but dares not go against Andersen and O'Hair as if they were infallible teachers. And, as if "the original MAD" was infallible.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm convinced that if the Lord Jesus himself came down and agreed with me, Jerry would have no small dispute with him.

It is obvious that your ideas are contradicted by the verses from the Scriptures which I quoted. And you did not even attempt to reconcile any of those verses to your theology.

Instead, you decided that you would attack me personally. I bet you are proud of yourself!

The twelve and their followers had no reason to expect the Atonement and their salvation until the Second Coming. It was in full accord with prophecy.

Jerry knows this is true, on some level, but dares not go against Andersen and O'Hair as if they were infallible teachers. And, as if "the original MAD" was infallible.

So we are supposed to believe that Peter did not think that he or those to whom he wrote his epistles had received the blessings of the atonement and wouldn't receive it until the Lord Jesus' second coming even though he wrote the following?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.18-19).​

Certainly those who had received Peter's first epistle had received the blessings which flow from the atonement because Peter told them that they were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Peter also told them this:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

According to your ridiculous ideas when Peter wrote those words he had not yet received any blessings which come from the atonement. And I am sure that you will just ignore these verses and continue to teach the some old nonsense.

These ideas of your cannot be found in the Bible and you are just the latest example of those in the Neo-MAD movement who has no use for any passage from the Scriptures which contradict your indefensible ideas.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is obvious that your ideas are contradicted by the verses from the Scriptures which I quoted. And you did not even attempt to reconcile any of those verses to your theology.

Instead, you decided that you would attack me personally. I bet you are proud of yourself!

It isn't worth the effort. I'm not changing my mind.
You aren't changing yours.

We shall find out at the judgment seat which is correct.

 

[Danoh]

It isn't worth the effort. I'm not changing my mind.
You aren't changing yours.

We shall find out at the judgment seat which is correct.

You know he is not going to allow you that liberty.

Time for you to apply Romans 14's grace principle, Shugart.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Time for you to apply Romans 14's grace principle, Shugart.

Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed.​

Do you agree with what STP said here?:

The twelve and their followers had no reason to expect the Atonement and their salvation until the Second Coming. It was in full accord with prophecy.​

How can any knowledgeable Christian believe that Peter had not received the blessings of the atonement and wouldn't receive it until the Lord Jesus' second coming even though he wrote the following?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1: 18-19).​

Certainly those who had received Peter's first epistle had received the blessings which flow from the atonement because Peter told them that they were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Peter also told them this:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

According to STP's ridiculous ideas when Peter wrote those words he had not yet received any blessings which flow from the atonement.

Is what STP wrote on this subject actually taught within the Neo-MAD community? Do you agree with STP?

if your answer is "yes" then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of 1 Peter 1:18-19 and 1 Peter 2:24.

 

[Danoh]

Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed.​

Do you agree with what STP said here?:

The twelve and their followers had no reason to expect the Atonement and their salvation until the Second Coming. It was in full accord with prophecy.​

How can any knowledgeable Christian believe that Peter had not received the blessings of the atonement and wouldn't receive it until the Lord Jesus' second coming even though he wrote the following?:

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1: 18-19).​

Certainly those who had received Peter's first epistle had received the blessings which flow from the atonement because Peter told them that they were redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Peter also told them this:

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).​

According to STP's ridiculous ideas when Peter wrote those words he had not yet received any blessings which flow from the atonement.

Is what STP wrote on this subject actually taught within the Neo-MAD community? Do you agree with STP?

if your answer is "yes" then please give me your interpretation of the meaning of 1 Peter 1:18-19 and 1 Peter 2:24.

Why? Why am I to please give you my interpretation?

Who says? Who are you? Everyone's parent?

What is your problem? Who made you Lord?

And who is this Neo-MAD community you speak of?

Is it those of Acts 9 (who hold that Paul taught one Mystery throughout Acts to Philemon, but differ as to your above assertion even within their own ranks)?

Is it those 13ers who assert that Paul taught the kingdom gospel until Acts 13?

Is it those 13ers (who also differ within their own ranks as to the above, and some of them even hold to a Pre-Wrath Rapture)?

Is it those within Acts 9 who hold that Paul taught two mystery gospels; one during, another after Acts?

Is it those who are KJVO? Those who are not?

Those who still hold to water? Those who do not?

Is it those who hold to some sort of Devine intervention as still at work? Is it those who do not?

Obviously, it is not those who feel the need to hound others down under the ever pestering gnat of "please this, that the other, so I can check you on it..."

Good luck with your delusion that you alone are not only the only one right, but that all should simply go along with you.

And good luck, hounding after all of them like some robot ever bumping into a wall, moving back, and then forward again in to that same wall - a wall it itself was programmed to build.

Again, whose Lord are you exactly; that you should be exchanged with until you hand out some passing grade?

Geez, what a pest of a husband, father, friend, neighbor, employee, client, shopper, driver - all around pain - you must be.

Lol, I have it - you're a mob guy in witness protection; feeling he can continue to rob others of their liberty to be fully persuaded in their own mind "because it says so right here, in my little red Communist Manifesto, signed by Chairman Mao himself - ye shall make the people bow to your hot air..."

:deadhorse:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

1. Passover (redemption by blood)
2. Unleavened Bread
3. First Fruits
4. Pentecost

5. Trumpets
6. Day of Atonement (blotting out of all sins)
7. Tabernacles

To use Jerry's words: According to Jerry's "ridiculous" ideas, they received the atonement before Pentecost.

God is One of order. Leave things where they are. Accept that Andersen and O'Hair might be wrong.