this -
Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
musterion
Well-known member
Because they will have done good (John 5:28-29) and so be resurrected unto life in the Kingdom, true?
glorydaz
Well-known member
good, i missed him-
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You say that it is not about "maintaining a fellowship" with the Lord but you give no proof. None! In fact, it has nothing to do with salvation. Or do you tell unbelievers that if they will confess their sins then they will have those sins forgiven and they will be cleansed from all unrighteousness?:
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.5:9).
Of course these words are addressed to those who are already saved. And the context reveals that "fellowhip" and not "salvation" is in view:
"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Pet.1:6-8).
In order to have fellowship with the Lord we cannot be defiled with sin in our "walk" so we are to confess our sins and we will be cleansed from our defilement.
On this subject the father of systemized Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, Sir Robert Anderson, wrote:
"For the believer who sins against God.to dismiss the matter by 'the blood cleanseth,' is the levity and daring of antinomianism. For such the word is, ‘If we confess our sins': no flippant acknowledgment with the lip, but a solemn and real dealing with God; and thus he obtains again and again a renewal of the benefits of the death of Christ. 'He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness'" (Anderson, The Gospel and It's Ministry [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978], 177).
musterion
Well-known member
John gives us the proof; he did not say "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to keep us in fellowship with Him." The issue isn't fellowship but FORGIVENESS AND CLEANSING, whereas Paul says we're 100% forgiven and clean in Christ -- as righteous before God as the Son is. Paul nowhere told us to "keep our feet clean" or "keep short accounts" by confessing our sins. Not once.
If you believe confession maintains that forgiveness and cleansing (and if you are honest and take John at his word, you have to) then not only are you using the same logic of Lordship Salvationists but are preaching salvation conditionally obtained/maintained by the work of confession.
That's a false gospel.
So how about entry into the earthly Kingdom = entry into life? You going to keep ignoring that?
PS
No Kingdom believer would say that, but self-righteous unsaved Jews would and did claim fellowship with God while yet rejecting Christ. That's precisely who John was addressing in that first chapter...that's why John was declaring Christ unto them.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In the "context" the Lord Jesus tells us exactly how a person can "do good" to be saved and thus attain the resurrection of life:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
So in order to "do good" a Jew who lived under the law was to 'believe" in the Lord Jesus.
musterion
Well-known member
And if they believed Him, they'd do good as a result. That good would be manifest at their resurrection and judgment by Him and they'd not be condemned.
If He had wanted to say "...they that have believed, unto resurrection of life," I'm pretty sure He was capable of saying it.
musterion
Well-known member
Note the bold. Anderson was correct in indicting the indulgence of willful sin on the grounds it's forgiven, but his application of 1 John as the answer to that was simply wrong. Paul says the believer is ALREADY AND FOREVER forgiven all sins in Christ and is ALREADY AND FOREVER perfectly cleansed in Him.
Dispensationally, you're in a no win here, Jerry:
1. To practice 1 Jn 1:9 for the reason John said to (conditional forgiveness and cleansing) is to put oneself back under a principle of law and is a fall from grace by denying God's provision for the Body, and so is itself sin.
2. To practice 1 Jn 1:9 despite the reason John said to (in order to "maintain fellowship," which John did not say and which we of the Body cannot even break) STILL doubts God's provision for the Body AND twists His Word, so is still sin.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The "context" where those words are found is in regard to "fellowship."
Yes, in our "standing" before God we are risen together with Christ and are sitting together with Him in heavenly places and our life is hid with Christ in God. We are completely identified with the Lord Jesus in our "standing.
Our actual "walk" is a different matter altogether.
He told us to judge ourselves, and that is exactly the same thing as confessing our sins to ourselves:
"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Cor.11:29-32).
Is Paul not speaking of judging ourselves in regard to sins which we commit in our "walk"? If not, then what does Paul mean when he tells Christians to "judge themselves"?
If we fail to judge ourselves or confess our sins then we will be chastened of the Lord. Do you ever "judge" yourself and what is it that you are judging yourself about?
1 John 1:9 is not about salvation and you have offered no proof that it is about salvation. Do you tell the unsaved that if they will confess their sins then those sins will be remitted and they will be cleansed from unrighteousness. Here is how Peter said that the remission of sins happens for the unsaved:
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).
So the words at 1 John 1:9 are written to those who are already saved.
I have already addressed entry into the resurrection of life. And in order to enter the earthly kingdom one had to be born again (Jn.3:3-5) and Peter says that one is born again by the word of God, the gospel:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23-25).
The Jews to whom those words were addressed were born again by the word and no works were involved.
I have answered many of your points so please answer my question concerning these words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
Do you agree with me that the Lord was telling them that if they "believed" then they would be saved.
If your answer is "no" then tell me why you don't agree.
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Lord Jesus told the Jews at John 5:24 that if they "believed" then they would be saved.
Do you believe that? If not, why not?
So you do not think that receiving eternal life has anything at all to do with the resurrection of life?
musterion
Well-known member
Jerry,
The tone and content of 1 John ch. 1 is clearly aimed at unbelieving Jews because John said things that would not need said to believers. That tone and content shifts very sharply starting with ch. 2.
Have to get ready for work. I'll reply at length later (like it'll make any difference).
The tone and content of 1 John ch. 1 is clearly aimed at unbelieving Jews because John said things that would not need said to believers. That tone and content shifts very sharply starting with ch. 2.
Have to get ready for work. I'll reply at length later (like it'll make any difference).
musterion
Well-known member
I do believe it, just as I also believe what Christ said in Mark 16:16 -- which you disregarded some time ago with your patented Jerry-O-Matic™ Verse Denial System that allows any passage of Scripture to conveniently say whatever you want it to say, even the opposite of what it actually says.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
This verse tells them to believe on the Father for eternal life.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
No. He said many things to them on this topic, however.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You say that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by believing and then turn around and assert that they couldn't be saved unless they were baptized with water.
If the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith that means that works played no part in their salvation.
But you somehow trick you mind into believing that they were saved by faith only but at the same time they could not be saved apart from works!
Now let us look at this verse:
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).
Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:
"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).
Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.
I answer Scriptures and unlike you, I do not stand reason on its head when addressing the meaning of verses. Now let us look at the Lord Jesus' words here again and see how ridiculous your answer is in regard to its meaning:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
You say that those who believed were indeed saved. But then you bring up Mark 16:16 which you think means that none of the Jews who lived under the law and believed were saved until they were baptized with water!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So? The Lord Jesus is the Prophet described here:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).
That does not change the fact that those who believe the words which the Lord Jesus spoke were saved.
Since you believe that what the Lord said here is correct then you must believe that any of the Jews who believed were saved:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
If you assert that no Jew was saved until he believed and did works then you are denying what the Lord Jesus said. You want it both ways!
You agree with the Lord Jesus' words that those who believed were saved but then you argue that none of those who believed were saved until they did works!
You are smarter than this, STP.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If you are right then John was telling unbelievers that if they wanted to have their sins forgiven and be cleansed from all unrighteousness all they had to do was to confess their sins.
According to your idea they could have all their sins forgiven without believing in the Lord Jesus. But Peter makes it clear that only those unbelievers who believe in Him would have their sins forgiven:
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).
According to you ideas an unsaved person had only to confess his sins to have their sins forgiven and to be cleansed from all unrighteousness. But according to Peter the unsaved could not have their sins forgiven unless they believed in the Lord Jesus.
A person must throw their reason to the wind in order to believe your idea.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I've read before that he who has the Son has eternal life.
And if they did not continually abide in the Son?
The salvation of this church is the 2nd coming. They were to, by faith, abide in the Son and obey looking forward
to the promised time when they would be saved by Grace. 1 Peter 1 agrees if we let it say what it says.